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1980-01-09 - Plan Commission - Minutes SPECIAL MEETING BUFFALO GROVE PLAN COMMISSION I & O/R ORDINANCE HIGHLAND GROVE JANUARY 9, 1980 Chairman Shields called the meeting to order at 7:47 P.M. in the Municipal Building, 50 Raupp Boulevard, Buffalo Grove, Illinois. Commissioners Present: Chairman Shields Mr. Goldspiel Mrs. Sheldon Mrs. Reid Mr. Shifrin Commissioners Absent: Mr. Button Mr. Davis Mr. Glover Also Present: Mr. Don Asher, Fiore/Hilltown Mr. Ron Lunt, Trammell-Crow Corp. Mr. Bill O 'Brien Mr. John Marienthal, Village Trustee Mr. Truesdell announced that the meeting has been changed from a Workshop to a Special Meeting, and that the papers were notified of the change. Chairman Shields stated that the order of the agenda has been changed and the Final Plat of Highland Grove Subdivision, Unit 2A will be the first order of business. HIGHLAND GROVE - UNIT 2A In reply to a question from Commissioner Reid regarding what the change in the plat was, the representative for Highland Grove explained that there was a drafting error showing two lots had been changed that were not. Mr. Truesdell added that the plat has been reviewed by the Engineering Depart- ment and they reported that everything is in order. Commissioner Goldspiel asked if the lot sizes met the ordinance. Mr. Truesdell said they always did, it was a matter of the foundations being placed on the lots wrong. The Village Board and the Zoning Board of Appeals felt that rather than taking the foundations out, it could be resolved by mov- ing the lot lines. Commissioner Goldspiel stated that Paragraph G of the Subdivision Regulations Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -2- calls for angles and I don't see them. Chairman Shields pointed out that they had not changed from the original plat. Commissioner Goldspiel moved approval of the revised Plat dated December 26, 1979, of Highland Grove, Unit 2A, subject to revision for compliance of Section G, page 15, of the Subdivision Regulations. Commissioner Reid seconded the l motion. Upon a voice vote, the motion carried unanimously. V REVISIONS TO THE INDUSTRIAL AND OFFICE/RESEARCH DISTRICT OF THE ZONING ORDINANCE Mr. Truesdell stated that he has had further comments since the last meeting I from industrial people and the staff. He added that one or two of the comments he had made, he has changed his mind on. He stated that Mr. Lunt from Trammel- Crow is present and some of these are his comments. Mr. Truesdell stated that Mr. Lunt feels the setback in the Office/Research District, when next to residential, should be changed from 45 ft. to 25 ft. . Mr. Truesdell said he felt that the 45 ft. should remain with possibly some consideration given when it is adjacent to other than single family. Mr. Truesdell added that, since receiving Mr. Lunt's comments, he has also spoken to Mr. Asher and Mr. Bob Landfehr. The Industrial District calls for a 90 ft. rear yard when it was a transitional district and all the feedback we have gotten is that it is too strict. What we should probably do is keep the rear yard setback as is (30 ft.) and add another 25 ft. to that when in a tran- sitional district, which has to be buffered and landscaped. He also added that when a building goes over 30 ft. in height, they have to add 1 ft. setback for every 10 ft. . Mr. Truesdell explained that in No. 2, the reason for going from 45 ft. to 50 1 ft. was to allow a 4-story building. Commissioner Sheldon said she wants to make sure we are allowing adequate set- backs. Mr. Truesdell said that in some respects we are reducing the transitional. In response to a question from Chairman Shields, Mr. Truesdell stated that other municipalities varied a lot. Mr. Asher added that we are not talking about unuseable land as far as parking - what we are doing is giving flexibility in placement of the building, and it may be that a nicely done building is more desireable than a parking lot next to residential. Li Commissioner Reid stated that the Industrial Ordinance mentioned no parking } Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -3- within 30 ft. of a transitional area and under 0&R, the only place parking is mentioned is in the front yard, so does that mean we have no restrictions on parking in this setback requirement? Mr. Truesdell said there is a 25 ft. tran- sitional setback that cannot be used for parking. Chairman Shields asked for a vote on whether the Commission wanted to make the requirement 25 ft. for both industrial and office/research. This suggestion was unanimously defeated. Chairman Shields asked for discussion on changing the building height from 45 ft. to 50 ft. Mr. Truesdell said Mr. Lunt 's feelings were that you would need 50 ft. if you wanted to allow a 4-story building. Current construction requires 12-13 ft. per floor. Mr. Truesdell said he concurred with this since our intent was to allow 4-story buildings. Mr. Truesdell stated that within this same area of discussion was No. 10, in which Mr. Asher had asked that we allow 10 story buildings. Mr. Truesdell said he would hesitate to allow 10-story buildings right now. The staff recommenda- tion is that we change it from 45 to 50 ft. In response to Commissioner Goldspiel 's question, Mr. Truesdell said Cambridge- on-the-Lake is a little over 45 ft.. Commissioner Goldspiel asked that wording be added in insure that no more than 4 stories could be built. Mr. Truesdell said we could state, "50 ft. or 4 stories, whichever is less." . A vote was taken on whether to change the ordinance from 45 ft. to 50 ft. . The 50 ft. change was unanimously accepted. ' Mr. Truesdell asked that the Commission discuss No. 10. Commissioner Reid asked, if someone wanted to build a 10-story building, what governs how the building is built. Mr. Truesdell answered that they would have to request a special use permit and would have to increase their setbacks accordingly. Trustee Marienthal added that the developer might be required to buy us our `./ first hook and ladder fire truck. Mr. Truesdell said he had talked to Dave Raupp about this and he was not concerned about it. He said that after you got above 4 stories you get into a different system of sprinklers, etc. . Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -4- Mr. Asher added that Lincolnshire was considering building an 8-story building and their fire department felt that they had no problems at all. Commissioner Goldspiel felt he would not want to allow a 10-story building to be put down just anywhere and it should be kept under Special Use. Mr. Asher said that if it is not part of the ordinance and would not be one of the allowed uses under the zoning that attaches to the property, then he feels from a marketing standpoint, it won't happen because of the amount of time needed to get approval. He felt it should be allowed with enough restrictions that the Commission would feel comfortable with it. Commissioner Goldspiel stated that in that case, he personally did not see any place in the Village where a 10-story building would be appropriate and, if there is such a place, we should identify it and plan it and have a separate high rise zone. Mr. Asher stated they have asked for the land adjacent to Highway 22 to have that capacity. If you want to have a lot of separate zones, then we would ask that you set aside a zone for 10-story buildings and that you apply it to our project. Commissioner Goldspiel felt maybe we should have more than one zone because many times we had someone who wanted to put up an office building and we did not have a zone we wanted to put it in so we put it in Commercial or something else. May- be we should have one zone for the smaller office, one for the larger office and one for the high rise. He added that in the case of the 10-story building, he did not feel there was a place for it in this Village because we don't have the interstate highways for buffers, but if there is a place for one, then we should plan it and create a zone for it. Commissioner Shifrin agreed. Mr. Truesdell suggested that in the case of Fiore, perhaps we could go ahead and set aside a specific area and say it could be allowed to go this height and give it a Special Use ahead of time. Commissioner Goldspiel did not think that would comply with the Special Use. Mr. Truesdell said he has talked with Mr. Raysa about it and he said it is a possibility. In response to a question from Commissioner Goldspiel, Mr. Truesdell said he is afraid of going much smaller than 10 acres on an industrial site. Thread Creek is 122 and I would hate to see anything smaller than that go industrial. The ordinance would state 6 acres for office and 10 acres for industrial. It was established that Burt Harris's office park is a little under 4 acres. Mr. Truesdell said something that small could go into B-3 zoning. In getting back to the discussion of 10-story buildings, Mr. Asher said if he Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -5- were to build a 10-story building under our present ordinance, he would have to have about 13 acres for one building. Mr. Truesdell agreed that because of the parking requirements and the landscap- ing this would be true. He said he thinks the Commission feels in some cases, 10 stories may be appropriate, and if that is the case, he would like to go to a separate district. In Item No. 3 regarding the size of parking stalls, Mr. Truesdell said we current- ly require 19 ' x 9 ' which accommodates a full size car. He felt it may be worth looking into decreasing the size because current surveys show about 70% of the cars today are compact cars. One idea he is considering would be to have full size stalls in the transient areas and reduced stalls in the employee parking area. He is expecting to receive some information on this. Commissioner Goldspiel felt the present requirements to be very minimal and feels the statistic of 70% of the cars being compact, misleading. In looking around the parking lot where he works, he said he found many people coming to work in vans and trucks. Also, once you get a vehicle that does not fit in the space and it overlaps into the next space, your whole system breaks down and you lose more space than you gain. Commissioner Reid agreed. Commissioner Shifrin felt compact cars are also getting larger. It was decided to look into this again in 5 years. A vote was taken on whether the Commission wanted a compact car allowance. The suggestion was defeated as follows: AYES: None NAYES: Comm. Goldspiel, Sheldon, Reid, Shifrin On Item No. 4, Commissioner Sheldon wanted to know what the reason for allowing 3-1 slopes would be. Mr. Truesdell responded that you can build a berm up in less space and still have it adequate. A great deal of work was put into the study of this in the B-5 Ordinance and he felt if it was going to be implemented there, it could be done in the whole village. It was established that the sides would be steeper, but the height requirement could be the same as it is now. Again, Mr. Truesdell said he felt the B-5 was supposed to be more restrictive Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 I - -6- and if it requires 3-1, why not allow it elsewhere. Commissioner Goldspiel pointed out that the B-5 is going to be off by itself. and not really next to anything else. Mr. Lunt said this came out of a recent project in Itasca and they found you can do it very effectively in a little less area. Commissioner Goldspiel suggested it be referred to the Appearance Commission. Mr. O 'Brien stated that if we choose to go with a 6 ft. berm, a 3-1 slope would be 4.0 ft. in width, whereas with the 4-1, it would be 50 ft. of berm. You could go with less height, but in excavation you have leftover soil and to a developer many times it is the best way for them to utilize this soil. If you have a 50 ft. berm, that exceeds your setback in many cases. The Commission was polled, with a yes vote being for the 3-1 slope. The voting was as follows: Comm. Goldspiel - Refer it to the Appearance commission Comm. Sheldon - Refer it to the Appearance Comm., but prefer 4-1 Comm. Reid - Would like to stay with 4-1 but would also like the Appearance Commission to comment on .it. Comm. Shifrin - Am leaning towards the 3-1 but will defer. Mr. Truesdell agreed to refer it to the Appearance Commission at their next meeting. In Item No. 5, Mr. Truesdell stated that the present ordinance states that you have to put a tree every 30 ft., and it was pointed out that you would be better off to say "the equivalent of one tree every 30 ft." so the developer would be encouraged to do some clustering. Commissioner Shifrin suggested using 4• trees for every 100 ft., but it was felt you could end up with nothing for 100 ft., and we want to have something every 30 ft. Trustee Marienthal felt promoting clustering is a good idea. The Commission was polled on whether they wanted to leave it at 30 ft. . Comm. Goldspiel - Refer to the Appearance Commission Comm. Sheldon - Yes and refer to Appearance Commission Comm. Reid - Yes and refer to Appearance Commission Comm. Shifrin - No and refer to Appearance Commission Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 i 1 I' I -7- Mr. Truesdell asked that they talk about No. 6 and No. 8 together. Mr. Asher expressed concern about some of the things that were allowed, such as freight terminals. Right now this is allowed only under Special Use. Regarding No. 8 - Outside Storage, Mr. Truesdell said he talked to Mr. Asher and Mr. Landfehr about this. Right now the ordinance allows you to store any- thing outside. Mr. Asher had some concerns about this. We would look to change it so that any outside storage would have to be confined to directly behind the building and bermed and landscaped to screen it from the surrounding property. He explained that the reason he connected this to freight terminals is because they have to store cranes, etc. and while we don't want to specifically exclude those uses, we want them to be properly screened, and make sure whatever ourside storage there is would be restricted. Commissioner Goldspiel felt that truck terminals are usually located near express- ! ways. He felt we would be fortunate to get one along the railroad and would not want to exclude us from getting a terminal of this sort, but would not want to have it built just anywhere, so he felt the Special Use is the place for that. He said he would not be offended by outside storage if it was properly screened and feels it is too restrictive to only allow it behind the building, again adding that it would have to be adequately screened. Mr. Asher feels they will get the highest and best dollar for them and the village by putting on these restrictions. He preferred there not be any outside storage allowed and if it is allowed, he would like to see it as much away from public view as possible. Mr. Truesdell explained that the way the ordinance is written now, you cannot have any outside storage within 150 ft. of a residential district and our re- commendation is to allow it if it is properly landscaped. He suggested wording to the effect that the landscaping would have to be sufficient to shield what- ever is being stored. The Commission was polled on whether they wanted the 150 ft. requirement changed. AYES: Comm. Sheldon NAYES: Comm. Goldspiel, Reid, Shifrin A vote was taken on the question of should storage be required to be directly behind the building and landscaped throughout the entire industrial area includ- ing the transitional area. Mr. Truesdell added that the developers present do not want to have outside storage allowed. AYES: Comm. Sheldon, Reid, Shifrin NAYES: Comm. Goldspiel Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -8- Chairman Shields asked the Commission to vote on whether freight terminals should be excluded from the Industrial District. Commissioner Sheldon stated she felt that with the railroad tracks there, it would be a perfect place for a freight terminal. Mr. Asher said they would be horrified at a truck terminal there. They work 24 hours a day i v The Commissioners voted unanimously not to exclude terminals. Mr. Truesdell explained that previously we had approximately 6 pages of uses and he opted for the more general use list. The fear was that by putting all of these things on the list, inevitably you would miss one on the list that you might want, so we made it more general. Commissioner Goldspiel asked if we could eliminate those things that use a lot of water. He also suggested the possibility of a restriction on people putting in their own wells. Mr. Truesdell said he would check into it and see what could be done. A vote was taken on whether we should adopt the general use list (Item No. 7) . AYES: Comm. Sheldon, Reid, Shifrin NAYES: Comm. Goldspiel In Item No. 9, Mr. Truesdell explained that the ordinance currently reads that if an office is not directly related to an industrial building, it should not be allowed. He felt that there is no reason why we should not allow a free standing office building. The Commission was polled on whether to allow a free standing office building in an industrial park. AYES: Comm. Goldspiel, Sheldon, Reid, Shifrin NAYES: None Item No. 11 - - Mr. Truesdell stated that the ordinance currently restricts ac- cessory retail to being located only within the building with no exterior signs. He said in an office park, an accessory use may be a restaurant, barber shop, travel agency, etc. . Right now it is restricted so it can only be a specific Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 I , -9- office use for the use of the office employees, and we found in talking to dev- elopers, there is a demand for retail accessory uses in office areas. We need to discuss further what uses should be allowed and, I agree that some signage should be allowed. He added that some retail use should be allowed as long as it is accessory - and accessory is defined in our ordinance as something that directly services the office park. l Commissioner Reid felt this would create traffic from nearby residential areas. v Mr. Truesdell added that you would also be discouraging employees from driving elsewhere at lunch time. Commissioner Goldspiel pointed out that Sears Tower has many shops but no outside signs. Mr. Asher said he agrees in an area of high density, but in an area of low den- sity you need something to draw the people in. Mr. O 'Brien felt that if you don't allow outside signage, you might as well take restaurants out of the ordinance. It won't make it. Mr. Asher felt it would be an unfair burden on a restaurant or other retail not to be allowed to have a sign. A restaurant would a part of the total concept where a business could take clients to dinner, etc. He added that he is not talking about a neon sign on top of the roof. It should be attractive and high class. Commissioner Goldspiel stated he would not want an office park to become a shopping center. Mr. O 'Brien said usually an ordinance will limit the accessory uses to a percent- age of the floor area and it should be in the building or attached, and not free standing. Mr. Asher said they would be willing to live with that. He added that they had been trying different ideas and having an accessory separate but connected to the office building was not desirable because the offices would look down onto the roof. He felt that inside the building was the best arrangement. Commissioner Goldspiel suggested screening out the high traffic generators such as fast food establishments. Commissioner Reid felt some kind of minimum signage should be allowed, with guidelines. After further discussion about the guidelines, it was suggested to get some in- put from the Appearance Commission on this. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -10- Mr. Truesdell said he and the staff have been tending towards the thought that floor area ratio is something that does not have to be in the ordinance. We are putting adequate restrictions with the setbacks, parking, height, etc. Commissioner Goldspiel stated that there are some very high space buildings that have few employees and he said he could envision lot line to lot line buildings. A vote was taken on whether to eliminate the floor area ratio requirement. AYES: None NAYES: Comm. Goldspiel, Sheldon, Reid, Shifrin Commissioner Reid asked Mr. Truesdell if he would look into how relevant floor area ratio is when you go into taller buildings. Mr. Truesdell explained that he purposely did not put in minimum lot size re- quirements. He said he has had some comments that possibly we should have added it in to set the character for the development. On the other hand, Mr. Landfehr had some concerns as it relates to the platting process. Mr. Asher commented that if they were platted in relatively large lot sizes of 3-4 acres, would the Subdivision Ordinance allow them to build without coming back and replatting on pieces of other lots. In other words, could they divide it up without replatting? They would still be adhering to the minimum lot size. Commissioner Goldspiel felt we should maintain control over the lots. Mr. O 'Brien cited Elk Grove Village as an example where a development is brought in as one large piece and as a lot is sold, it is platted and brought before the Commission. Commissioner Sheldon asked what happens if the present developer does not own it later on? Mr. Truesdell suggested he check into this further and table it for now. Mr. Truesdell stated that in relationship to the performance standards under Section 2.8, he was looking at Lincolnshire 's ordinance since it is the newest one and there are some things he felt would be good to include in our ordinance. Such as, when referring to the amount of light that can come from one piece of property to another, ours is not very good. Also, there are two more in relation Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980 -11- to toxic matter and radiation standards. He said he would put these together for the next meeting. Commissioner Reid asked if there are Government standards. Mr. Truesdell said yes there are in some cases. Commissioner Reid stated that it seems that there should be a better way to go about setting these standards, because if another village makes a mistake, we end up perpetuating it. The Plan Commission then went into Executive Session. Commissioner Shifrin moved the meeting be adjourned. Commissioner Sheldon se- conded the motion. The meeting adjourned at 10:50 P.M. Respectfully submitted, Astrid L. Hasley Recording Secretary APPROVED BY: J c_ Patrick Shields, Chairman Buffalo Grove Plan Commission Special Meeting January 9, 1980