1980-01-16 - Plan Commission - Minutes REGULAR MEETING
BUFFALO GROVE PLAN COMMISSION
Happ Farm
Fiore/Hilltown
JANUARY 16, 1980
L.../ Chairman Shields called the meeting to order at 7:50 P.M. in the Municipal
Building, 50 Raupp Boulevard, Buffalo Grove, Illinois.
Commissioners Present: Chairman Shields
Mr. Goldspiel
Mrs. Sheldon
Mr. Button
Mrs. Reid
Mr. Shifrin - arrived at 8:40 P.M.
Mr. Glover
Commissioners Absent: Mr. Davis
Also Present: Mr. Jim Mikes, Attorney, Happ Farm
Mr. John Mastandrea, Developer, Happ Farm
Mr. Rick Burton, Happ Farm
Mr. Joe McBride, Engineer, Happ Farm
Ms. Susan Bartels, Engineer, Happ Farm
Mrs. Verna Clayton, Village President
Mr. Elliott Hartstein, Village Trustee
Mr. Bill Balling, Village Manager
Mr. Bill Sommer, Assistant Village Manager
Mr. Greg Boysen, Public Works Director
Mr. Dick Kuenkler, Village Engineer
Mr. Jim Truesdell, Village Planner
Mr. Stan Crosland, Director, Park District
Mr. Bill Kiddie, Park District
Mr. Jim Burowski, Park District
Mr. Bill O'Reilly, Park District
Mrs. Prudy Knaack, Park District
TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION
Commissioner Goldspiel reported he has received the final Ridership Report for
Route 690. It is146,254 which is 30 - 14 ahead of last year.
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Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 2 -
HAPP FARM
Commissioner Goldspiel had a question on point one of the proposed recommenda-
tion referring to streets and cul-de-sacs being dedicated to the Village. The
map I have, lists them as being dedicated.
Mr. Sommer explained that yes, but they are not conforming to Village standards.
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Commissioner Goldspiel said that he was disappointed with this proposal and did
not want to discuss it any further.
Mr. Sommer could understand his concern. There are a lot of points related to
engineering information that the developer will be required to give on his
preliminary plat before it is reviewed by the Village Board.
Commissioner Goldspiel felt there were more problems with this than what appears
on this draft recommendation. The Park District is lacking acreage, etc. I
am still unhappy that about an acre of park land has disappeared between the time
it was originally submitted and now. This is a very major area of the Village
and I cannot see scrimping on streets and sidewalks and .I think many members of
the Commission would like to have more green area. The whole thing does not seem
to be the quality that matches our Ordinance and Master Plan. The density
is off and the open space is inadequate.
Commissioner Sheldon did not think the,project was ready to leave the Plan
Commission. There are too many things still open to discussion I feel there
are still many problems. I agree with Steve and the point he has made. I am
concerned with the streets, etc. My main concern is that we seem to be Just
meeting the ordinances and this is on Dundee Road where it reflects the Village.
Commissioner Glover agreed with Commissioner Goldspiel. It seems that every
meeting we have we are looking at a different park plan. I also feel the future
access to the southwest portion of the property, not proposed for development,
should be looked at at this time. I don't see how we can resolve it until the
park is resolved.
Mr. Sommer stated the park site has not changed in six months. What has changed
is that they did not want to take the specific detention site. Dick has worked
with the developer to let the developer use some Village property to extend the
drainage.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that the change he saw was the disappearance of
an acre of land.
Mr. Mastandrea stated that was because you did not want cul-de-sacs.
Commissioner Sheldon wanted to see some plans to resolve the park problems.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 3 -
Chairman Shields determined the Commission agrees with items 2, 4, 5, and 6.
Mr. McBride stated that they have deleted the pond at the north end and carried
the berm out into the White Pine ditch area to improve the slopes and since we
will be raising the ground higher than what it would have been, we need additional
storage. It allows me to split the two flows and that allows me to continue
the bike path, swing it north across the realigned ditch. The south pipe carried
along the east side will enter the stream alignment approximately 150 feet north
of the property. It will carry the discharge north of the site, I am allowed
to use that part of the ditch and continue to have a good underground system in
the park area. This will allow a much quicker use of the park area after a
rain storm. I have a personal preference for the other plan but they are both
workable.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked why the concrete drainage path across the north
portion of the detention park site was necessary.
Mr. McBride responded that it will be a 24" storm sewer that will become active
very early in a storm. By allowing a 24" pipe to discharge in this area, it is
almost impossible to maintain that area. That is why we are paving it. The
detention area will have a 5-1 slope. This is a slope like what you have in
front of the park building.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that in trying to picture the plan area, I was
worried about the concrete.
Mr. McBride said that this will be the wetter of the area and as you get further
south there is almost 300 feet of active play area.
Mr. Kiddie wanted to know if it would be possible to take the pipe and attach
it to the one that is to the north instead of discharging it on to the concrete,
Mr. McBride replied that no, with the storm water detention requirements that
water must be discharged to the pond area.
Commissioner Sheldon asked the Park Commissioner to give a summary of the con-
clusions reached at the Park District meeting.
Mr. O'Reilly responded that the concensus (3-2) was that the conceptual approach
of the bike path area is leading in the right direction. Regarding the basin,
it was 3-2 against. It appears only 60 feet in width is flat. As far as active
or formal area is concerned, I don't think it would be useful for too much. We
were looking for a viable grassy area and for possible ice skating in the winter.
To make it viable in the summer time would also make it not viable in the winter
for ice skating.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 4+ -
As far as the ordinance for park donation land, there should be 5. 19 or 5.2
acres of active use. We are trying to determine what is active and what is not.
At this point we are looking at 2 acres or less.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that he felt another issue is the concept of cash
in lieu of park land donation. It has been our practice to use that only when
absolutely necessary. It seems to me that if we are short, we need to consider
whether we are willing to recommend whether a cash donation be accepted in lieu
of this property. I don't feel this is a case where cash is appropriate.
Commissioner Glover wanted to know why they were terminating the pipe and not
continuing it.
Mr. McBride responded that he would prefer using the natural channel where
available. I will be using the channel at about half what it now carries.
When you are discharging water into a park area, what works well is a concrete
swale.
Commissioner Glover stated a major concern is flooding and we have to get this
water into that ditch somewhere and if it is closed, is that possible?
Mr. Boysen stated yes, it would be the same depth of the low flow channel.
Commissioner Button asked if you put the pipe level with the bottom of the ditch
and leave a swale on top this would work?
Mr. Boysen answered yes.
Mr. McBride said that he understood there will be a storm sewer to the east that
people can hook up to.
A resident replied that about a week and a half ago they noticed boring equipment
and they went across that area and they never took a boring in that spot.
Mr. Mastandrea said they previously took borings in that area.
Commissioner Button asked Mr. O'Reilly if he understood correctly that the Park
District was not willing to accept the basin area as park land with or without
the pond.
Mr. O'Reilly said if it were a pond, it definitely would not be accepted.
Commissioner Button asked Mr. Mastandrea in the event that half of that parcel
ended up not to be acceptable would you entertain looking at additional land.
Mr. Mastandrea replied he would like to see a nice piece of ground used as park.
He has incorporated the additional White Pine area of seven acres for a total of
eleven acres plus a cash contribution.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
i .
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`f You have agreed to this. All of the changes made have been changes made on
your recommendations. But everytime I make a change you make more changes.
Commissioner Glover stated that if they want land instead of cash and even if
it was all acceptable, we are still an acre short. The Park District still
is not sure this land is big enough for an active use. Commissioner Shields
felt that was the Park District's business.
Commissioner Goldspiel made a motion that the Preliminary Plan contain at least
five acres of useable park land rather than cash donation. Commissioner
Sheldon seconded.
Commissioner Sheldon wanted to know what other recreational facilities are going
to be in here other than park?
Mr. Mastandrea stated they have agreed to eight foot sidewalk on Weidner Road
and along Dundee Road. It was agreed this was the Park District's business.
The motion was voted on and defeated 4-2.
Commissioner Sheldon asked if the Park District were to receive money, would
that money go into this park?
Mr. O'Reilly stated the Park District does not want to get involved with
developing developments, but Paragraph I of the Donation Ordinance specifies that
the donation shall be planned as park first. Many times the developer plans
water management and then says - Can we turn this into a park?
Commissioner Button moved to reconsider the previous vote.
Mr. Sommer stated that if we are going to reduce the density, we are also going
to reduce the park requirement.
Commissioner Button withdrew the motion. My original complaint was it was too
dense.
Commissioner Sheldon asked if the Park District would want to consider any other
forms of recreation?
Mr. Kiddle stated that they have an excellent example in Bicentennial Park.
I would not went to have anything short of that. That is why there is this
split. It took 2-1/2 years before we could determine what to put on the site.
We don't even have the soil boring information this time. We have to have more
material to work with. We still don't know if it will work. If it doesn't work,
we will have to be responsible for it.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 6 -
Commissioner Shifrin asked if we accept the park donation how will we be sure
he will do everything possible to make it useable. Can we get some idea from
the Park District what they will do with the property or if they accept cash
only and what is the developer going to do?
Mr. O'Reilly stated that approximately 55% of the basin area is 5-1 slope which
leaves approximately 40% of it for active use.
Commissioner Shifrin asked the developer if the Park District were to set up the
criteria that would make this park acceptable, would you be willing to go along
with it?
Mr. Mastandrea said yes, I am. I am willing to bond myself to do that also.
Prudy Knaak stated that we want quality land that is useable. I have objected
to this because it is primarily detention and secondly a park. I would want
flat land that is easy to maintain.
Mr. Hartstein stated that what he hears from the Park District is they want useable
park land. I would hope that could be accomplished. The motion voted down was
requiring more land and here is an area of the Village that is land poor. I
would think there would be a concern for this area and would urge the Plan Commis-
sion to reconsider.
Commissioner Glover stated the quality of land is more important than quantity.
I think we need to direct the developer to go back and redesign his plan.
Mr. Sommer responded that you say you want more park land. He has 5. 19 acres
with 1.4+ for water management. That leaves us with 3.79 acres. One more acre
should satisfy the requirement. You will need 2.39 acres if you want the entire
5.19
Commissioner Glover made a motion to table this and direct the developer to go
back and develop suitable park land donation that would be acceptable to the Park
District. Commissioner Goldspiel seconded the motion.
Commissioner Shifrin made an amendment that rather than acceptable to the Park
District, say, in agreement with the Ordinance and standards.
Commissioners Glover and Goldspiel agreed.
Mr. Mastandrea stated that if you want more land then that would eliminate any-
thing I would put in the White Pine area.
This was agreed to.
The motion carried unanimously 6 - 0.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 7 -
Chairman Shields called a reoess at 9:40. The meeting reconvened at 10:00 with
the additional following people attending.
Mr. Dave Gewalt, Harland-Bartholomew
Mr. Tom Dyke, Harland-Bartholomew
Mr. Bob Hamilton, Harland-Bartholomew
Mr. Robert Friedman, Fiore/Hilltown
Mr. Don Asher, Fiore/Hilltown
Mr. John Kinley, Land Planner, Fiore/Hilltown
Mr. Jim Mikes, Attorney, Fiore/Hilltown
Mr. Hamilton explained how the traffic study was done. The first exhibit showed
P.M. peak hour which is traditionally the highest of the day. This showed 30%
of the trips are along Route 22 to the east for a total of 465, with 255 going
west. The impact at Schelter Road won't be significant because it is in final
design for 4 lanes.
He stated his biggest concern was Buffalo Grove Road and Route 22.
The project will generate 1200 southbound on Buffalo Grove Road and 1000 north-
bound. When you get closer to the present village limits, it will be 880 south-
bound and 740 northbound.
Mr. J ►ilton stated that some changes can be made without affecting these fig-
ures very much, but if the light industrial were to become office, that would
generate 4 times as much traffic.
He said he assumed that 5% of the residents would work on site, but this could
be much higher.
Regarding Buffalo Grove Road extension, Mr. Hamilton said he preferred the align-
ment along the Pegelow property. If the county is willing to take this road,
then they could use their powers of condemnation to acquire the alignment, but
before we accept this alignment, you should make sure you get a road through to
Route 60. If it ends at Port Clinton Road, it will not do much good. He added
that if it were to run through the industrial area, you might end up with multiple
driveways coming out onto Buffalo Grove Road; whereas if it were along the edge,
you could use a collector. He felt there should be four lanes of traffic
through out the development.
There was some discussion about whether the developer should contribute to the
improvement of Route 22. Mr. Hamilton said there is no precedent for this.
�•/ Mr. Hamilton said he would recommend closing Port Clinton Road and let Long
Grove do whatever they want with their part of it. The remainder of Port Clinton
Road should be upgraded to Village standards.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
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He said they anticipated the developer accepting the cost of Buffalo Grove Road
north of Aptakisic to Route 45. He recommended the Village set up a recapture
with him.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if consideration was given to public and rail trans-
portation on the Soo Line.
Mr. Hamilton said there is no place for a station. He added that the only signal
arm crossing would be at Route 22, and he would recommend signal arms at Buffalo
Grove Road also.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if there studies indicate where a station should be.
Mr. Hamilton said that is the land planner's field, but he would not want to see
one on Route 22. He said bus service should be done once the final road lay-
out is done.
Commissioner Button asked if any consideration had been given to road improve-
ments for the total area beyond that property.
Mr. Hamilton said they did not becuase they were looking at developer-paid
improvements.
In response to further questions about road improvements, Mr. Hamilton said we
should concentrate the funds from this project where it will do the most good,
which is Buffalo Grove Road.
Mr. Dave Gewalt presented the waste water situation. He said the numbers have
changed but the final result has not changed significantly. He said his conclu-
sion is that there is available capacity for this development and those known
developments.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if this would necessitate further expansion of the
treatment plant.
Mr. Gewalt said he did not think a firm conclusion can be made because the ques-
tion of the North Shore Contribution is up in the air, and if you remove that
consideration, he did not think there would be a level of capacity that would
t warrant expansion.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if the pipes have enough capacity or are we going
to have to build some more pipes somewhere. Mr. Gewalt said there is an addi-
L/ tional capacity of 10,000 people.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if we should increase the interceptor line. Mr.
Gewalt said it does not appear anyone should be concerned about it.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 9
Mr. Gewalt presented his findings on the on-site sanitary sewers. He mentioned
that each one has to cross at least one stream. He added that consideration was
given to the population generated by the Pegelow property.
He said he felt one lift station would be required. Gravity service seems to be
available to all parcels. He said sizing would be the important factor and not
the precise location of the line.
Mr. Gewalt summarized his findings and said his recommendations are there is
available treatment capacity and interceptor capacity and he sees no reason to
discourage the plan as submitted for these reasons.
Mr. Gewalt presented his findings on the water service requirements. He recom-
mended the Village rely on the deep well water until the Lake Michigan allocation
because there are problems with the shallow aquifier.
Since the total water supply of the Village would be exceeded, he had to estimate
the demands the Village would have with and without this development. He said
he took the maximum daily demand and got peak flow factor of 2.2. There is the
possibility the firm pumping capacity cannot be met.
Mr. Gewalt stated the storage has not changed in quantity from last time but
more thoroughly reflects what is on-going in the Village. Besides storage, you
should have an emergency reserve.
The developer's contribution toward the well supply should be an equivalent con-
tribution of 2.2 million gallons and a storage of 1 million gallons. A second
well may not be needed if the peak demands do not reach this level.
If the shallow aquifer is chosen, the development should provide some means that,
if the well does not work adequately over a 5-year period, or it does not provide
the capacity or quality is such that it would need treatment, that would be their
obligation.
Commissioner Glover wanted to know what the situation would be if you take the
worst condition or Lake Michigan water does not arrive. Mr. Gewalt said it is
hard to assess. The most reliable studies estimate that at the present rate,
the deep aquifer capacity is such it could provide water through the year 2,000.
Commissioner Glover asked if we would have to change the well depth. Mr. Gewalt
said that every year you continue to mine the aquifer, you risk having to lower
the pump settings. Commissioner Glover asked how low you can go before you need
a new sleeve. Mr. Gewalt said he was not sure.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked what happens in the 2,010?
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 10 -
Mr. Gewalt said the pumps have to work harder and water quality deterioration
will result. He said he is not in a position to say all the wells go off and
no one has water.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that Mr. Gewalt had taken into consideration that
one well could go out, but we have had more than one out of service at one time.
Mr. Gewalt said he did not think it would be a reasonable engineering concern.
There are other available options at that time such as sprinkling bans, etc.
It was determined that the staff agrees with Point Number 1.
Mr. Balling said it is conceivable that Lake Michigan water will be available to
Buffalo Grove by 1985.
Mr. Boysen said if we do not expand, we will still experience draw-down.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that the way he sees this is if this development is
built, we will get Lake Michigan water and still have to keep pumping at the rate
we are now.
Commissioner Glover asked how likely is it that our allocation would be increased
if we go ahead with this project?
Mr. Boysen stated that the Keefer Company has accepted the population projections
so it looks like it is going to serve as the basis for the allocation.
Commissioner Glover asked what increase we could expect. Mr. Boysen said he did
not have the figures with him.
Commissioner Goldspiel stated that it is expensive to build a deep well and by
opening this development now instead of when we have the Lake Michigan water,
are we raising the cost to the existing residents?
Mr. Boysen said no; we are still paying off well number 6 and are accumulating
reserves and could possibly lower the rates. Mr. Balling added that we are in
a position to have a capital reserve or issue a rebate. He said it will probably
cost more to the people requesting to hook up to the system, but we don't contem-
plate water rates would pay for system expansion. The exception would be if the
system improvement fees would not come in at approved rates.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if someone could stop us from drilling these wells.
Mr. Balling said no.
Regarding flood management and detention, Mr. Gewalt said they are effectively
utilizing on-stream detention. These plans meet the criteria established by
IDOT and are designed according to the MSD and Village requirements.
Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980
- 11 -
Mr. Dyke said the fiscal impact is a positive result. There is essentially
350,000,000 market value. There is commercial, office and industrial land
use that will improve the tax base of the Village.
In summary, there is capacity in TAke County to handle this project. One matter
the planners are looking into is park space. The density might have to be re-
duced to provide the park land. We feel it looks good for the Village. There
are certain things the developer needs to do so it does not become a burden on
you.
Chairman Shields asked Mr. Dyke how he arrived at these figures. Mr. Dyke said
he believes that is the formula for Lake County. Chairman Shields stated that
this is a conservative way to do it but it is not legal and you come up with a
higher value.
Mr. Dyke stated they are coming to the conclusion of their work on the analysis.
He said they feel the Fire Department essentially only serves the industrial and
they recommend the lines be changed.
Commissioner Goldspiel asked if they had an opinion as to how likely it will be
built like this or whether market forces will change it.
Mr. Dyke said the land use recommendations regarding residential would appear
to be essentially sound and you could expect the housing would be built over a
period of time. It is our experience that the market keeps chAnging and a developer
will come back and want to change the home style or such. Generally speaking, there
was not enough retail/commercial land. It would increase the tax base. This
would revolve around the corner of Buffalo Grove Road and Route 22. With respect
to office and industrial, I think you should give some more thought to deciding
how much office and how much industrial you want. The developer is going to have
to have a market strategy on how to move that land. I don't question that it
won't ever happen, but feel it needs to be addressed more. We think it is wise
to give more attention to the market analysis of that type of land.
Commissioner Sheldon made a motion the meeting be adjourned. Commissioner Shifrin
seconded the motion, which carried nntnimously. The meeting was adjourned at
12:15 A.M.
Respectfully submitted,
Astrid Hasley
Recording Secretary
APPROVED BY:
Yatric1 Shields, Chairman Buffalo Grove Plan Commission
Regular Meeting
January 16, 1980