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2004-02-04 - Plan Commission - Minutes Board or Commission: ❑ Plan Commission Document Type: ❑A e g nda 0 Minutes Meeting ate: 02/04/2004 Type of Meeting: PUBLIC HEARING BUFFALO GROVE PLAN COMMISSION February 4, 2004 ExxonMobil, 1248 McHenry Road/1250 Arlington Heights Road, Rezoning of one parcel to the B-3 District, approval of a Preliminary Plan in the B-3 District and approval of the appearance plans for a gas station, convenience store and car wash Chairman Ottenheimer called the hearing to order at 7:30 p.m. in the Village Council Chambers, Buffalo Grove Municipal Building, 50 Raupp Boulevard, Buffalo Grove, Illinois. Chairman Ottenheimer read the Notice of Public Hearing as published in the Buffalo Grove Daily Herald, explained the procedure to be followed for the public hearing, and swore in all persons who wished to give testimony. Commissioners present: Chairman Ottenheimer Mr. Samuels Mr. Smith Ms. Bocek Ms. Kenski-Sroka Mr. Khan Mr. Teplinsky Mr. Stark Mr. Cohn Commissioner absent: None Also present: Ms. Wendy Kenny, WD Partners Mr. Bob Walker, WD Partners Mr. Dan O'Connell, Trammell Crow Company Mr. Dave O'Toole, ExxonMobil Dr. Thomas Thunder, Acoustic Associates, Ltd Mr. William Raysa, Village Attorney Mr. Richard Kuenkler, Village Engineer Mr. Robert Pfeil, Village Planner Mr. Greg Summers, Associate Village Planner The following exhibits were presented by the petitioner at the public hearing: Exhibit 1: Material Sample Board, prepared by WD Partners Exhibit 2: Preliminary Site Development Plan dated December 19, 2003 Exhibit 3: Preliminary Landscape Plan, dated December 19, 2003 Exhibit 4: Car Wash Colored Elevations dated January 14, 2004 Exhibit 5: Convenience Store Colored Elevations dated January 14, 2004 Exhibit 6: Old Convenience Store Colored Elevations dated September 9, 2003 Exhibit 7: Existing Conditions Plan dated June 19, 2003 Exhibit 8: Projected Noise Levels dated October 10, 2003 Exhibit 9: Memo from Robert Pfeil to the Plan Commission dated January 30, 2004 Exhibit 10: Tree Inventory and Report dated November 4, 2003 Exhibit 11: Memo to Robert Pfeil from James Briskin, received February 4, 2004 Wendy Kenny noted the only change to the revised plan is that two signs have been removed. One sign was an exit sign and another was an earn free car wash poster. She stated they are proposing to remove the existing Mobil gas station and the vacant Coldwell Banker building on the corner. They are then proposing a 4,100 square foot convenience store, free standing car wash, new canopy and new fuel tanks. Ms. Kenny compared the original convenience store elevations with the current proposed elevations. She noted they have modified the brick color, the look of the front facade, reduced signage and colors in working with staff. Ms. Kenny stated one of the big concerns at previous meetings was for a bypass lane behind the C-store, which they have provided at this time. In doing so they have had to change the building to 4,100 square feet instead of 3,900 square feet. In addition they have a ten-foot dedication of right of way along Arlington Heights Road. There are now two curb cuts along Route 83 and they are proposing to close the one nearest the intersection and there will be one curb cut along Arlington Heights Road. There are 16 parking stalls as required by code and they are asking for a zoning variation of the front landscape buffer yard and the trash enclosure which is located in the front yard of Arlington Heights Road. Dr. Thomas Thunder stated they requested data from the proposed manufacturer, which shows a level of about 76 decibels, which is almost the sound of a blender in the kitchen. He noted that what makes this car wash different from many others is the fact that the doors at the entrance remain closed during the blowing cycle. This is critical because even the weakest of doors can provide a substantial amount of attenuation. By having this door closed it makes the sound automatically one half as loud as it would be with the door open. Dr. Thunder stated they also calculated the natural noise reduction that would occur from that measurement position of 30 feet to the north to the residences and that brings them down by 11 decibels. At that point the level is about 51 decibels. The current Village code is 56 decibels. This is an old code and he had to do a conversion in order to measure it. The operation of this car wash would certainly meet the Buffalo Grove code. He noted the US EPA has a guideline of 55 decibels, the State of Illinois has a noise limit of 55 decibels. Therefore as long as there are doors on the car wash that close, he is not concerned. Mr. David O'Toole, construction project manager for ExxonMobil, stated they have made significant changes to their standard design based on meetings with the ART. He noted they typically do not do brick and they typically have different colors. They have made a lot of concessions to try and fit into the Village of Buffalo Grove. Chairman Ottenheimer noted he would like some testimony on the suitability of the site for its proposed use, how it is consistent with land patterns and zoning in the area and the need for the use as well as the impact on adjacent properties. Mr. O'Toole stated the suitability for the use goes along with the fact that there is an existing service station on the facility which they propose to rebuild into a state of the arts facility. There is currently no car wash facility on the location, but they feel that car wash would provide a service to the customers coming on to the site. They try to make their sites a one-stop facility for their customers. Mr. O'Toole stated he sees no impact on the adjacent properties. The abandoned building would, of course, be impacted, but it would now become part of the overall site. As far as the neighbors, they are not expanding into their direction and upgrading this existing facility would be a positive for them. Chairman Ottenheimer noted the Commission had received a letter from Christine Mastandrea of the Spoerlein Commons Shopping Center concerning the height and width of the new proposed canopy and the impact on the tenants of their center. Mr. O'Toole stated the new canopy is taller by less that one foot. As far as visibility impacts to the facility next to Mobil, it can only improve the visibility, as the new canopy will actually be raised slightly. The new canopy would be put where the current existing convenience store is and the new convenience store would be set back further from the road increasing visibility to the property adjacent to Mobil. Ms. Kenny stated they had a tree survey completed for the existing site and the landscape plan has a breakdown of the trees that will remain and the ones to be relocated. A number of the trees were not in good quality and the Village Forester agreed that they could be removed. There were a number of trees in the northwest corner which will be kept intact and there are also a couple of trees in the southeast corner that were in good enough condition to be relocated on site. A couple of trees on the spot where the parking lot is going are in bad condition and will be removed. Commissioner Smith asked if the facility would be a 24-hour facility. Ms. Kenny stated yes. Commissioner Smith asked where the vacuum cleaners would be located. Ms. Kenny stated there is an air stand and vacuum unit located on the west side of the convenience store building. Commissioner Smith asked if the noise study would have included these vacuums. Dr. Thunder stated the noise study did not include that, but the fans on the blower are much more powerful. Vacuum cleaners can vary greatly in terms of their noise but it is something that can be specked out in the project. This means they can spec it out not to exceed a certain decibel at three feet and if it is higher, some simple shrouding and things of that sort can help reduce the noise and maintain it within the limits. Commissioner Smith asked if the facility would be closed during construction. Ms. Kenny stated it would have to close and the construction period ranges from 90-120 days. Commissioner Kenski-Sroka noted she wants the memo from James Briskin to Mr. Pfeil regarding the building on the corner of Route 83 and Arlington Heights Road, which was once Long Grove school, entered into the record. He noted he is not in favor of demolishing this building due to its historical nature. Commissioner Stark asked if there is any concern with carbon monoxide poisoning for the people inside the car wash with closed doors. Mr. O'Toole noted the doors are automated and they have done numerous car wash projects like this across the country and obviously ExxonMobil would be concerned if there were a hazardous situation in this building. All the evidence and experience ExxonMobil has had has never resulted in any bad experience. Commissioner Stark asked how the bypass lane would be marked. Mr. O'Toole stated they could put striping on the pavement. If the desire is to separate the bypass lane from the actual queue lane to the building they can definitely put pavement striping to distinguish the two. Commissioner Stark asked if the existing trees would block the trash enclosure sufficiently from the adjacent residences. Mr. O'Toole stated yes and noted there is an upgrade to the trash enclosure at this location. This is a brick enclosure to match the building and it is on the side of the property nearest the road on purpose to keep it away from the neighbors. The vacuum is also located on the road side of the building and shielded by the building from the neighbors. Commissioner Cohn asked what the Illinois Pollution Control Board regulations provide for decibel levels exceeding the ambient level. He asked if they are allowed to create a new use where decibel levels exceed what already exists. Dr. Thunder stated that is not addressed. He stated it addresses the absolute sound levels but in cases where the ambient noise clearly exceeds that then the ambient noise by default becomes the maximum limits. Commissioner Cohn asked if the underground storage tanks on the plan are existing or will be put into the ground when the facility is built. Mr. O'Toole stated they are the proposed tanks. They will be new state of the art double wall fiberglass tanks. The current tanks are in a different location. Commissioner Cohn suggested the tanks perhaps should be located more centrally on the property and farther from the property boundary just in case there are any leaks or spills. Mr. O'Toole noted they could take that under advisement. The system is a double wall fiberglass system. There would be spill containment around the turbine, which pumps the product out of the tanks. He stated they try to locate the tanks in the most advantageous position to allow safe ingress and egress to the tanker truck to come onto the site. The area in front of the canopy may actually too narrow to fit these tanks which is why they are somewhat on the corner. Commissioner Cohn asked if anyone has come to the petitioner to talk about the old Long Grove School. Ms. Kenny stated no. Commissioner Teplinsky asked about the lighting plan and specifically how the intensity of the lighting on the new plan relates to what is currently on site. Ms. Kenny stated the proposed lighting plan has new lights under the canopy and there are also some short pole lights, no higher than 16 feet, around the site just to provide proper lighting. There is no over spillage over the property line. She noted the lighting will be improved but it is a standard lighting layout which provides visibility all over the site without spillage onto neighboring residences. Commissioner Khan asked about the variation request to the design of stormwater detention. Mr. Bob Walker of WD Partners stated the Village code specifies a 4:1 side slope and they are requesting a 3:1 slope, which requires a variation. The other variation is in order to have native vegetation like wetland type grass. The benefit of the wetland grass is that it actually helps improve the water quality and helps filter any of the contaminants that run off the parking lot itself. They need to do this because in order to get the actual volume of storage required they would need to have underground storage, which is cost prohibitive. Therefore, the more they can get above ground, the better and they can get more above ground by using a steeper slope. Commissioner Khan asked the Village Engineer if it was agreeable to go from a 4:1 slope to a 3:1 slope. Mr. Kuenkler stated that is still a maintainable slope and would be fine. Commissioner Khan asked what kind of arrangement ExxonMobil has with the property owner next door since they are using that property for the storage of their stormwater. Ms. Kenny stated they are just expanding the detention basin only in the direction of their own property. However, there is a current easement from the Village of Buffalo Grove for drainage and utilities in this area. She further noted they are not impacting across their property line, rather just expanding on their side. The drainage calculations take into account this basin as well as everything that eventually leads out into the IDOT system and takes into account part of Spoerlein's property as well. Commissioner Samuels asked if there is any place else to relocate the trash enclosure in order to avoid requiring a variance. Ms. Kenny stated they have put the trash enclosure in this location to allow proper space for the garbage trucks to come and empty the containers. She noted they have proposed that the enclosure will be the same color brick as the building and there will also be landscaping around it so it will not be a visible negative impact. Commissioner Samuels asked if the variance to allow a right of way of 43 feet instead of 50 feet from the centerline of Arlington Heights Road is agreeable to the Village. Mr. Kuenkler stated the present right of way north of the site adjacent to Spoerlein is 40 feet and it seemed reasonable not to require the 50 foot right of way in this location and there is a standard parkway being provided. Commissioner Smith stated it is his opinion that a 24-hour operation is fine for the gas and convenience store operations but he feels the car wash and vacuum should be limited to 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Mr. O'Toole stated his personal feelings are that it is better for ExxonMobil to operate 24 hours per day. He noted there may be a way to disable the vacuums after hours but he is not sure how much use they would get after hours anyway. The car wash helps their economics and limiting the operation would hurt the overall project. Commissioner Smith stated the Shell station across the street has the same operation and they are limited by those hours and he does not feel it is unreasonable to limit the car wash. Mr. O'Toole stated ExxonMobil is excited to rebuild this location and they feel they have given many concessions and noted their preference for 24-hour operation of the car wash. There being no further comments or questions from anyone else present, Chairman Ottenheimer closed the public hearing at 8:25 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Fay Rubin, Recording Secretary APPROVED BY: LESTER OTTENHEIMER, Chair Board or Commission: ❑ Plan Commission Document Type: 0 A e g nda 0 Minutes Meeting ate: 02/04/2004 Type of Meeting: ❑ Regular Meeting REGULAR MEETING BUFFALO GROVE PLAN COMMISSION February 4, 2004 ExxonMobil, 1248 McHenry Road/1250 Arlington Heights Road, Rezoning of one parcel to the B-3 District, approval of a Preliminary Plan in the B-3 District and approval of the appearance plans for a gas station, convenience store and car wash Alcott Center, 530 Bernard Drive, Review of a Preliminary Plan for a parking lot expansion in the R-5 District—Workshop #1 Chairman Ottenheimer called the meeting to order at 8:25 p.m. in the Village Council Chambers, Buffalo Grove Municipal Building, 50 Raupp Boulevard, Buffalo Grove, Illinois. Commissioners present: Chairman Ottenheimer Mr. Samuels Mr. Smith Ms. Bocek Ms. Kenski-Sroka Mr. Khan Mr. Teplinsky Mr. Stark Mr. Cohn Commissioners absent: None Also present: Ms. Wendy Kenny, WD Partners Mr. Bob Walker, WD Partners Mr. Dan O'Connell, Trammell Crow Company Mr. Dave O'Toole, ExxonMobil Dr. Thomas Thunder, Acoustic Associates, Ltd. Mr. Michael Rylko, Executive Direct, Park District Mr. John Green, Groundwork Ltd. Mr. William Raysa, Village Attorney Mr. Richard Kuenkler, Village Engineer Mr. Robert Pfeil, Village Planner Mr. Greg Summers, Associate Village Planner APPROVAL OF MINUTES Moved by Commissioner Kenski-Sroka, seconded by Commissioner Teplinsky to approve the minutes of the regular meeting of December 17, 2003. All Commissioners were in favor of the motion and the motion passed unanimously with Commissioner Khan abstaining. COMMITTEE AND LIAISON REPORTS—None EXXONMOBIL, 1248 MC HENRY ROAD/1250 ARLINGTON HEIGHTS ROAD, REZONING OF ONE PARCEL TO THE B-3 DISTRICT, APPROVAL OF A PRELIMINARY PLAN IN THE B-3 DISTRICT AND APPROVAL OF THE APPEARANCE PLANS FOR A GAS STATION, CONVENIENCE STORE AND CAR WASH Moved by Commissioner Samuels, seconded by Commissioner Teplinsky, to recommend approval to the Village Board of the petition for approval of an amendment of a Planned Unit Development(P.U.D.) in the B-3 District and rezoning of Parcel 2 described below from the B-1 Limited Retail District to the B-3 Planned Business Center District and approval of a Preliminary Plan with the following variations: ZONING ORDINANCE--section 17.32.020.A. (to allow an accessory structure (trash enclosure) in the front yard along Arlington Heights Road); Section 17.44.040.D.4. (to allow a landscaped yard of 12 feet in width instead of 22 feet for a portion of the frontage along McHenry Road); DEVELOPMENT ORDINANCE — Section 16.50.040.C. (concerning design of the stormwater detention facility); Section 16.50.070.D.2 (to allow a right of way of 43 feet instead of 43 feet instead of 50 feet from the centerline of Arlington Heights Road) so that the petitioner may construct its proposed convenience store, car wash and new canopy for the gasoline service facility, pursuant to the evidence produced and the exhibits introduced in the public hearing and subject to demonstration that the vacuum cleaners will meet Village noise ordinance. Moved by Commissioner Smith, seconded by Commissioner Kenski-Sroka to limit the hours of operation of the car wash only from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. Commissioner Samuels noted this is a public hearing and there is the opportunity for the public to object to the proposal and there is no one here to object. He stated he does not feel, in the absence of public objection, that this is something that the Commission needs to add to the matter at this point. Commissioner Teplinsky stated he agrees. He noted there has been no one from the public from the neighboring shopping center or townhomes at the workshop meetings and no one is here tonight and he therefore agrees with Commissioner Samuels. Commissioner Smith noted people do not always come to these meetings and it does not mean the Commission should not stick up for those people. He noted he speaks to those people on a daily basis and they have given him information. He stated it is not unreasonable to limit the hours nor will it be much of a financial hardship. Chairman Ottenheimer called for a vote on the amendment to the motion, which was as follows: AYES: Smith, Kenski-Sroka, Stark, Cohn NAPES: Samuels, Khan, Teplinsky, Ottenheimer ABSTAIN: Bocek The motion failed. Commissioner Bocek noted the Commission's recommendation does include findings that the suitability of the site for the proposed use is acceptable and consistent with the pattern of the land use and the zoning in the area and it is an existing facility so the community need is there. In addition, the impacts on the adjacent properties are not negative. Commissioner Samuels noted the development team bent over backwards to accommodate the Commission. He thanked the petitioner for accommodating the bypass lane and stated this will be a welcome improvement to the corner. Commissioner Smith stated he also appreciates the concessions made by the development team but feels strongly regarding the hours of operation of the car wash which will have somewhat of a detriment to the surrounding community and has no choice but to vote against the motion. Commissioner Stark stated he feels this plan will enhance the areas around it and will vote for this plan. Commissioner Cohn stated he wishes there had been more comments from the public about the Long Grove School. Chairman Ottenheimer called for a vote on the motion and the vote was as follows: AYES: Samuels, Bocek, Kenski-Sroka, Khan, Teplinsky, Stark, Cohn, Ottenheimer NAPES: Smith ABSENT: None ABSTAIN: None The motion passed 8 to 1. ALCOTT CENTER, 530 BERNARD DRIVE, REVIEW OF A PRELIMINARY PLAN FOR A PARKING LOT EXPANSION IN THE R-5 DISTRICT—WORKSHOP#1 Mr. Pfeil stated that when the Village Board referred this matter the context was that it was a preliminary plan as defined by the Development Ordinance and this kind or review includes the Plan Commission, workshop and public hearing process. That is the Plan Commission's role in the development ordinance preliminary plan process. It is not being put in front of the Plan Commission as a Special Use amendment and is therefore not a zoning action per say; rather a development plan review. Mr. Green stated this is a development ordinance process. The Park District has an ordinance in effect for what is the Alcott Center and the Alcott Park going back to 1986-1987. This project is a need that has been reviewed by the Park District since July. Mr. Green stated the Park District was aware when they began talking about this that there would be those who would not be as pleased with the concept as others. He noted the program is to add parking to service the existing operations at Alcott Center. Alcott Center has by default and definition become the central operating location of many of the Park District programs. A few years ago an addition was put on at the northeast corner of the facility that provided a room for seniors and other activities where growth had demanded that additional space be provided. The parking is being proposed adjacent to and in conjunction with the wing that services the adult and senior programs. Mr. Green reviewed the overall site plan noting the area where the parking is proposed in relation to the entire park. There is an existing parking lot behind the building now. That parking lot would be modified so that an additional 11 spaces would be added in that area. 14 existing spaces will be removed as part of this program and 25 spaces added in the existing parking area. Some spaces need to be removed in order to provide for the expansion of the parking into the main area where they are putting parking and some of the spaces need to be removed in order to provide for the expansion of the parking closer toward the building and the senior room that was added. They would then add 43 parking spaces in the corner of the site. The Village ordinances provide that parking can be located in a rear yard or side yard. However, the Park District has requested that no parking cross the building setback line, which is a 35-foot setback line. All of the parking is significantly further away than that. In addition the Village had expressed some concern that there should be provided the detention necessary for the paving that would be done. Right now there is unrestricted flow of this area of the site to the existing adjacent creek. Detention is now being provided and is shown on the plan as part of the program. Mr. Green stated the new lot is set squeued from the lot lines and is done on purpose to help maximize the opportunity for screening and to minimize the amount of paved area that would be necessary and to maximize the distances that would exist from any adjacent lot line. The proposed parking would have an open, dry detention area which would have all the detention and which would then restrict the flow of the water into the adjacent creek area. Berming would be created along two of the sides of the parking lot that face existing residences. Those berms would vary in height from two feet up to seven feet depending on the amount of soil that needs to be removed. He noted they have designed the lot to remove as much soft soil as possible which takes the lot itself down as low as possible. There is an existing grouping of trees that runs along the existing parking. Those 5-6 trees would be removed and relocated on the east side of the detention area. It is the Park District's desire to try to take the existing trees, which are 12-14 feet high and move them over because that provides an effective screen immediately. Mr. Green noted that just the senior programming alone from 1999-2003 has increased by 21 percent. The membership has gone from 369 to 448. That does not count those who attend programs who are not members of the programs. The Park District has heard from its constituency that it is exceedingly difficult to attend many of the programs because parking is not available. There are also many evening programs as well. Mr. Green stated 54 parking spaces are probably not the right number of required spaces. Considering that there has been a 32 percent expansion in the number of bookings and operations at Alcott in the last 4 years and that there are 107 existing parking spaces, one could say only 35 spaces today. However, that would not count those who have reported that they have no place to park so they don't even come, or those who say we need to exceed the number of handicapped spaces that are required by law because there are a number of senior operations here. The Park District has said they need to create parking where it needs to happen at a scale that will accomplish their goals for the next 3-4 years considering the growth in the projections. So the 54 parking spaces is what they believe is appropriate for that. Mr. Green noted that there are many people who park illegally in the back now even when there are 3-4 parking spaces available in the front. People park along the driveways and on striped areas. These people are not necessarily seeking to break the law. He believes these people are demonstrating the need, demand and location for spaces. Mr. Green stated the detention is being provided adjacent to the parking lot. The trees that are now located to the west of that lot would be relocated to the east and considerable berming is programmed to both the north and south so that additional screening can be provided. The program also calls for additional landscaping on those berms. Chairman Ottenheimer noted the BGRA uses part of that open field as a T-ball field and asked if that is still needed by BGRA. Mr. Green stated this field would be eliminated and noted the field was not in use last year. In addition to that there are two new fields coming on line this year at Busch Grove Park. Chairman Ottenheimer asked what additional amount of impervious surface would be added with the proposed parking lot as opposed to what was being offered for Safety Town. Mr. Green stated originally on Safety Town it was proposed to be somewhat over 13,000 square feet of paving. The proposed parking lot is approximately 11,000 square feet of paving. Chairman Ottenheimer asked if there was any thought given to reconfiguring the front of the building for parking. Mr. Green stated there has been consideration given to locating the parking in a number of places, not just the front. They were all considered not appropriate or viable. Appropriate has to do with opportunity and need. The parking demand is at the wing adjacent to where the parking is proposed. The opposite wing is where most of the pre-school and children's programs are. The need over there and in the front is more for drop off and pickup. You will usually find 2-3 parking spaces open there when the back is already being illegally parked. It is adjacency and the structure of operation within the building that dictates this plan. Chairman Ottenheimer noted there is a definite need for more parking but he is disappointed that they have not seen an alternative plan for the front of the building. Mr. Green stated the Park District did not ignore those considerations. He noted that 400-500 feet is a considerable obstacle to many people who are seeking handicapped parking spaces. In addition to that it does not solve all of the issues that do exist at the front and there is a great deal more work that needs to be done to solve that. It will not handle the parking need because it is a circulation issue. Chairman Ottenheimer asked how many handicapped spaces are required. Mr. Green noted that for 107 spaces, 5 handicapped spaces are required. Chairman Ottenheimer asked if there would be any handicapped spaces in the proposed new area. Mr. Green stated they are proposing that some of the existing spaces immediately adjacent to the senior entrance would be reconfigured so that there would be three at that location. There would also be two more added in the existing lot immediately adjacent behind the building. Commissioner Samuels noted there is a large front yard area currently that makes the front parking remote from the building. He asked how that would change in a new plan and if that area would be eliminated. Mr. Green stated that area would not be entirely eliminated as there are utilities there and they ultimately need to have a drop off lane closer to the building. One of the inefficiencies that exist there now is that you have a lot of aisle with very little parking so the goal would be to establish double aisles. One of the other significant issues that exist on the front of the building is that in order to park or see if there is another parking space you actually have to go back onto the street and come back on the site. All of that needs to be addressed and the drop off lane needs to be isolated from the rest of the parking lot. Commissioner Samuels asked if they had tried to see how many new spaces they could get into the front area. Mr. Green stated yes. He noted he also included the lot that the Park District now owns and the number they come up with is 46 and there are now 37 parking spaces there. That does not count the 3 drop off spaces that are often used as parking. That comes up to a 9 parking space increase. Commissioner Bocek asked why more events are being booked here knowing that there is already a parking issue here. Even if the proposed spaces are added, it still is not enough parking. Mr. Green stated that is because there are no other facilities available. Commissioner Bocek stated that perhaps that is the issue that should be looked at. Commissioner Teplinsky stated that while is convinced the need exists to accommodate more people, it seems this need would have existed back when the Safety Town proposal advanced which would have increased use of the facility and parking did not seek to be the issue then. In addition, he noted his primary concern is with the drainage issues and asked for more detail on how the proposed plan would affect drainage. What is being done to improve drainage in the area and what studies have been conducted, if any? Mr. Green stated the floodway drainage question is a separate question. He stated he understands the desire to link it but they are not linked. The proposal is to provide some additional paving for parking. Now that area is uncontrolled on its release. The proposed paving would be served by a stormwater detention area in compliance with Village ordinance. The detention will handle stormwater from the paved surface and will provide a restricted release into the floodway area, which does not now exist. Commissioner Teplinsky asked if the flooding issue would be made better or worse by the parking lot. Mr. Green stated none of this work is being done in or at the floodway and should have no effect. Commissioner Khan noted that if there is no one downstream then when the water leaves the parking lot it ends up in the creek that runs on the northeast side of the building. He stated that this proposal must be taken seriously, as we are not allowing the Park District to build any other buildings. There is a need for this kind of programming and if the Park District does not offer this kind of programming then the people will find someplace else. Commissioner Cohn asked how the Park District reconciles the fact that the previous Safety Town proposal would have taken up the area now proposed for the parking lot. Mr. Green stated at the time Safety Town was proposed there were 14 additional parking spaces included in that. At that time the Park District indicated it was their goal to establish Safety Town as a temporary facility for 2-4 years because they had a need to provide that program. They knew at the time that they would have a demand but they rationalized and balanced that need because they would have been providing those additional parking spaces for the Safety Town program while they searched for a final location for Safety Town. They always indicated that the location of Safety Town here was intended for temporary use. Commissioner Stark asked for a quick lesson on detention and what is required. Mr. Green stated there are formulas for how much impact impervious surface or buildings have. There are requirements and Village standards and other standards for requirements to hold the water after certain amounts of rain. You have to hold water based on the 100-year storm rate of water coming onto the site. You then have to restrict the release of that water from that site over an extended period of time so that it does not all rush into the same place at the same time. The proposed detention exceeds the requirement. Commissioner Kenski-Sroka asked why the number of programs are not reduced to a level at which the facility can handle them if there is such a shortage of parking. It is apparent that the Park District has outgrown this facility and she is troubled that the Commission is being asked to put the needs of the adjacent residences on the same footing as those residents who come to use the Park District facilities. She noted she is not comfortable with the trade off here because she is not convinced that the additional surface area would not impact the water problem. She noted the Park District has to do something to alleviate the number of people who are using the facility. Perhaps this is one way to drive home the point to the Village residents that another facility is needed if they want to continue at this level. Mr. Green noted the Park District would not know which of the senior they should eliminate. In addition he would suggest that the Park District is not in the business of offering programs that do not have a demand or a need expressed to them because they have serious budget concerns and considerations. They offer programs when the demand comes up and when the program needs to be filled. They do do lotteries and they do have limitations but you cannot stop the people from demanding the programs. Commissioner Kenski-Sroka stated there are limited resources here and she is not convinced that the additional parking is not going to materially impact the people behind it. She stated she is not convinced that the reduction from 13,000 square feet to 11,000 square feet is material and she does not see how this will work. Mr. Green noted that when the Park District began this process they knew what they were facing. As a government they have an obligation to fulfill the needs. Commissioner Smith asked the Village Engineer what effect this additional paving going to have on the runoff into the creek and ultimately to the neighbors. Mr. Kuenkler stated it would have no effect. Commissioner Smith asked what the situation is with the creek now and if there is a problem with runoff to those neighbors at this point and the way it is. Mr. Kuenkler stated there is no problem with runoff from the Park District site now. He noted that the White Pine ditch at this point probably has a tributary area approaching a square mile so 10,000 square feet of paving or grass or anything really will make no change to the creek whether it is restricted or not. Mr. Green indicated the Park District spent a great deal of time working on their scheduling of programs so that they do consider the load that is coming in the fulfill the program needs and they are constantly re-scheduling them and constantly working to ensure that the balance can be maintained. Commissioner Bocek noted that the Plan Commission makes sure that any use coming before the Commission has adequate parking. She feels it is reasonable to put those same criteria towards this use. The Plan Commission indicated this project is ready for public hearing. CHAIRMAN'S REPORT—None FUTURE AGENDA SCHEDULE Mr. Pfeil noted the next meeting would be held on February 18, 2004. PUBLIC COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS Mr. David Borenstein, 259 Cottonwood, stated with respect to what Mr. Green said that there is a disparity or difference between the flooding issue and the separate development question that is absurd. He noted he has lived here for 17 years and the flood plain is adjacent to a flood zone and he has seen the whole north Alcott field flood 3-5 feet on several occasions. He noted the Park District has bought a house directly west of the Alcott Center. He asked what they plan to do with that house and suggested they tear down that house and build additional parking. This is the beginning of the end of the park area of the Alcott Center. Eventually they will probably need more programs and space and parking. He further noted that the back parking lot only has one access which is very restrictive when emergency personnel are required. He stated there are schools in the area that the Park District should be able to find ways of putting some programs into. He noted the north Alcott field is the only open space area where people can play. Mr. Borenstein noted the White Pine ditch is small and inadequate to carry any more water. There is a culvert at St. Mary's which gets blocked up and St. Mary's gets flooded and this has not been adequately addressed. He stated the Park District would essentially be destroying the character of the neighborhood. Mr. Irwin Krimke, 840 Weidner, stated he has walked the area of the White Pine ditch where it starts and stated he does not think the creek rises any more than about 18 inches even after it rains. Mr. Sid Mitchell, 2272 Avalon Drive, stated there are many seniors in the Village and he does not feel that enough programming has been provided for them. He noted the Park District programs provide camaraderie and good ways to spend their time. He noted that if there are engineers who state this will not add to any flooding, why not believe them. Ms. Alyssia Pavalon, 241 Cottonwood, stated this is a residential neighborhood and if this is only going to work for 4-5 years and then they build some place else, they have ruined this area for nothing. Ms. Eleanor Hesse, 787 Beechwood, stated there has been flooding in Lyon Park. She pointed out the area between Dundee and Lake Cook Road has had a lot of new condominium development with no new park space provided. She stated she would hate to see this park space taken away. She noted it might be possible to put some senior programs into empty weekday churches. STAFF REPORT—None NEW BUSINESS—None ADJOURNMENT Moved by Commissioner Smith, seconded by Commissioner Stark and carried unanimously to adjourn. Chairman Ottenheimer adjourned the meeting at 9:53 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Fay Rubin, Recording Secretary APPROVED BY: LESTER OTTENHEIMER, Chair