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1976-12-09 - Appearance Control Commission - Minutes `''APPEARANCE CONTROL COS4IISSION VILLAGE OF BUFFALO GROVE DECEMBER 9, 1976 In the absence of a Chairman, the motion was made, seconded and passed that Commis- sioner Helms serve as Acting Chairman for the meeting. The meeting was called to order at 7:30 in the Municipal Building. Roll call was taken: Those present: Acting Chairman Helms, Commissioners Rosenfeld, Hardt, and Tolle. Commissioners Butler and Gramm were absent. Members of the Zoning Board of Appeals were also present, and roll call was taken for that Commission: Those present: Chairman Heinrich, Commissioners Hefler, Kearns (arrived at 7:45), Quick, Schroeder, Garfield, and Haarr (arrived at 8:00). Also present were Mr. Tom Fennell, Chief Inspector, Community Development, and Police Sergeant Ken Blanchette. Marvin Hymen - Buffalo Grove Associates The first item of the agenda was Marvin Hymen - Buffalo Grove Associates - Possible Solution to the Increasing Number of Temporary Illuminated Signs in the Village. Mr. Hymen was present, as was Sherin Braun, Architect. Mr. Hymen stated that the proliferation of the temporary signs was bad appearance wise and due to the fact that they could get out of control. He stated that some type of interchangeable sign was needed by the tennants of Plaza Verde because from his experience the tennants could benefit highly by this type of advertising to promote and increase sales. He stated that since each tennant cannot have a temporary sign at all times and in a solution to banning all temporary signs, it was his feeling that a permanent sign, with interchangeable letters, which type and size could be approved by the Commissions, regulated as to size per acre, etc. , for the retailers to display special events, sales, etc. , would be a solu- tion, and, therefore, wanted to present a sign that he felt would be good for Plaza Verde, which if looked on favorably, might set a precedence for other groups of merchants needing the same type of advertising, eliminating the increasing number of flashing temporary signs. He stated that he would like to work with the Commissions to see if a suitable sign could be agreed upon by all. Mr. Sherin Braun showed a site plan of the entire complex of Plaza Verde, Phases I and II. He pointed out where the existing approved signs were located, and stated that they would like to place the presented pylon sign in a location that no other sign would enfringe on in terms of a person driving down Dundee Road. He presented drawings of the new pylon sign and described the sign, stating that the top would be bronze with the illuminated letters of Plaza Verde in the same script as the existing identification sign, but the letters would be on a smaller scale. He stated that landscaping would be done beneath it to make it into the total concept of configuration and landscaping. He stated that the sign would be 11'8" by 8', and that the overall height would be 18'10" from the ground line. It was stated that the sign would be in two parts, so that two tennants could use it at one time, however, at no time would more than two tennants be using it. The same message would be repeated on each side. The merchants would rent the sign, the money going into the Merchants Association, and after the sign was paid off, the money would go into merchants advertising in general. Appearance Control Commis in -2- December 9, 197$ a Acting Chairman Helms stated that the Appearance Commission and the Zoning Board of Appeals were concerned with the problem of temporary signs, and stated that with this input the Commission members could begin to decide if this could be a possible solution, although no specific decision could be made at this meeting on this sign or its concept. He stated that the three main aspects were (1) The concept as a whole. It had been established in the past that there would be no advertising in signing, making this a different concept, which would need some discussion; (2) Discussion as to whether if approved, this is the kind of concept the Commissions would like; and (3) The dis- cussion and approval of the sign itself. Chairman Heinrich stated that there were a number of issues involved, one being that there were a maximum number of signs permitted by the Ordinance now on the property. He stated that he was not in favor of the temporary roll-about signs, that they detract from the Community, and that the flashing ones can be a safety hazard and that the Ordinance should be rewritten to forbid the use of these signs. He stated that if the Commissions considered this permanent sign, it would probably be handled as a variance to the Ordinance, and if other groups of stores wanted this type of sign, they would come before the Commission to ask for approval of such a sign, providing it would meet the Ordinance requirement of number and size of signs per size of shopping area. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that he did not know if this was the answer to the adver- tising problem, that it seemed to be replacing one type of sign with another, that it is still an advertising sign, and that the market is so much larger than the contacts that the sign would make. Commissioner Garfield stated that he agreed with Commissioner Rosenfeld in that this seemed just to be an advertising sign, which if allowed to proliferate in the Village, would only take the problem of the temporary signs and magnify them into something just a little fancier, still having the problem of controlling the number of signs on a particular square-footage development when you take into consideration a small strip versus a large shopping center. He stated that he did recognize that there is a problem here, but that setting a precedence here might eventually mean a row of carnival-like signs on Dundee Road. Commissioner Schroeder stated that he does believe in advertising, and that the mer- chants should have a certain amount of liberty within a certain concept, rather than spelling out completely that every merchant should have the same type, height and color sign, and that he felt that the free enterprise system should be considered as to the freedom and liberty within the specific laws of the Village to let the merchants advertise if they want to. He stated that he was not in favor of the temporary signs on wheels, but that if the advertising could be done attractively and effectively, it should be allowed. Commissioner Kearns stated that besides considering the concept of this sign in itself, he felt the problem was in setting a precedence for more and more signs of this type in the Village. He stated that about a year ago, request for a sign at Plaza Verde was turned down by the Board because of the advertising intent, and he felt that the Appearance Control Con\.,ission -3- . December 9, 1976 original intent should be recognized because of what could happen along Dundee Road. He stated that there were a lot of other ways to advertise, and to set a precedence would make it difficult to restrict other merchants from sign advertising, and it could get out of control. He also stated that there might be argument as to equal opportunity to advertise on the sign, and that other merchants might want their own signs. Chairman Heinrich stated that everyone would have a turn on the sign, and that the Ordinance is very specific as to square footage, and if everyone had an equal chance to advertise, no one would be at a disadvantage. Commissioner Garfield stated that there possibly could be a problem with this type of control among the merchants because of stores which are much larger than others getting the same time to advertise. Mr. Hymen stated that he thought this would help the smaller stores compete with the larger stores, in that the smaller stores, who are not known to the traffic along Dundee Road would have a chance to get across to the media, therefore helping the • Village as well. He stated that he understood the appearance problem, and also the problem of the shopping centers losing business because of the public not knowing they existed. Commissioner Quick stated that he did not care for this type of sign or the temporary signs either, but that the type of sign being presented was preferable over the temporary signs. He inquired of the Appearance Commission as to whether the sign at the Buffalo Grove Mall was part of the original agreement with the Mall, and Chairman Heinrich stated that at that time Buffalo Grove did not have an Appearance Commission. The point was brought out that there was no control over the amount of letters on the sign at the Mall, and that the liquor store now has its own sign. Mr. Hymen stated that the letter sizes could be controlled, and that it would go through the Appearance Commission as would any other sign and be carefully regulated. Commissioner Hefler stated that he did not see this as anything new in concept, rather as a way to get more signage. He stated that he felt the Village had taken a uniform posture about sign advertising, and did not see this as a help to the growth of the Village's commercial community, and that to the converse, a large center with more clout would be able to afford the sign as a small merchant might not. He stated that as far as square footage, he felt that the marketplace could be reached through other media. .He stated that many other villages were strict where signs were concerned. When asked about temporary signs, Commissioner Hefler stated that he did not care for them, and felt that they were an eyesore to the Village. Commissioner Hardt stated that he agreed with everone else in regard to the temporary signs, that he completely disapproved of them, but stated that he felt that for the small merchant some type of sign advertising can be very beneficial, however, he did not think that this might be the approach to take. He stated that his chief concern was that a lot of these signs end up with letters falling down, with different colored letters put up, storm damage, and not being well maintained. He stated that while Plaza Verde might maintain their sign, it is possible that shopping centers down the line with less capital or less funds might not maintain the signs, therefore questioning this type of Appearance Control Commis,on -4- V December 9, 1976 precedence. He again reiterated that he did feel that sign advertising could help some of the small merchants in helping identify products and services offered. Commissioner Tolle stated that he agreed with the comments of the other Commissioners in that he felt that the temporary sign promoted a carnival-like atmosphere, particularly the flashing ones, but that he felt further discussion would be needed to decide the best approach to take. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that because of the merchant being after a larger market than the traffic passing on Dundee Road, the day of the strip shopping center in Chicago as a concept of how much foot traffic passed by the door as indicative of what kind of rent the landlord could demand is passe, especially in the suburban areas were it would not be appropriate, but mentioned that within the shopping center, one stopping at a large store would not be aware of any other store having a sale or promotion, but mentioned that as with other large shopping malls, a poster poll with signs geared for the foot traffic away from their vehicle could be effective as a rallying point to see what the other merchants have, rather than having cars on a major thoroughfare trying to read the sign while driving at a high speed. Mr. Hymen stated that would be keyed to those already in the shopping center, and felt that since Dundee Road was so well traveled, business could be drawn in for other merchants. Commissioner Haarr stated that he did not like the temporary signs, but stated that he did not feel that signs such as the one being proposed would be effective in the atmosphere in which we live. He stated that he felt that the shopping center name was appropriate and that people usually know what type of store they are seeking, and will go to the shopping center if it is there. Mr. Hymen stated that he would agree, but that results of signs indicating a discount on products were overwhelming. Commissioner Hardt stated that he felt that when one is able to see a sign, even though he does not make an immediate stop, he keeps in mind the sale advertised and would probably make a point later to go there if the sale appeals to him. The question was asked of Police Sergeant Ken Blanchette as to whether signs of this nature could cause an accident or traffic problem, and Mr. Blanchette stated that this really depended on the individual and to whether the individual was paying attention to what he or she was reading or to the matter of driving the car effectively. He stated that as far as the sign was concerned, there was the problem of, as with the Mall sign, appearance wise, that children throw rocks at it and cause a continuous maintenance problem. He stated that he felt the flashing temporary signs could create a traffic problem on Dundee Road,. where the snow is already a hazard. Acting Chairman Helms inquired of Sergeant Blanchette as to whether the type of sign being shown, with all the white portion would be a safety help as far as lighting up the road, and Sergeant Blanchette indicated that any lighting of areas helps as far as that is concerned. Appearance Control Corission -5- December 9, 1976 After the discussion of all members present of the Appearance Commission and Zoning Board of Appeals, Acting Chairman summarized that the concensus of opinion was that no one was in favor of the temporary signs, but as far as signs for advertising, there was a mixed response, some feeling that the merchants were entitled to it, some thinking it was ineffective for the money spent. Assuming that the opinion would be for advertising of this type, the next questions would be the approval as to appearance, and the problem of control as far as fairness. He stated that as far as appearance, one solution would be to forgo identification signs and use the type of sign proposed, but controlling the use would be another matter. - Opinions from the Audience Mr. Ken Krause, Buffalo Grove, identified himself and stated that he was quite concerned seeing all of the temporary signs going up. He stated that the Plaza Verde sign proposal was to be commended, but that any of these signs would destroy the aesthetic appeal of Buffalo Grove. He stated that he was concerned by the many opinions of the Commissioners in that many merchants in the Buffalo Grove Mall did go out of business even though there was a sign of this type available to them, even with temporary signs for the liquor store, and stated that he felt that if you do develop a certain aesthetic value for a shopping center, with first class merchants, business could be attracted, and stated that even people from out of town would go into a nicely arranged shopping center with trees and parking lot. Acting Chairman Helms inquired as to thoughts on advertising signs of this nature, and Chairman Heinrich stated that rather than in a sign ordinance, this should come under a zoning ordinance, and that some of the things under the sign ordinance should be recon- sidered under the zoning ordinance, which would effect the zoning on the lot and could ban temporary signs after a permanent sign had been erected, except where a new business would need a temporary sign until the permanent sign had been approved. He stated that if this would be the approach and policy, it should be so stated in the ordinance so that it would not be up to individual members of the Appearance Commission, but would be written into the ordinance in keeping with general aesthetics and policy and be treated equally under the law. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that advertising signs would have to be defined as in the case of perhaps a movie theater coming into the Village. Chairman Heinrich stated that he felt that signs, if done effectively and tastefully, were beneficial to merchants and that commercial and industrial are beneficial to our taxes. Acting Chairman Helms stated that he would like to explore the matter further, Chairman Heinrich agreed and stated that he would like to look into the concept and try to find a workable solution. It was decided that a poll would be taken as to the concept of this type of sign. Commissioner Haarr stated that he was in favor of pursuing the matter further to perhaps work out something reasonable. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that he did not want to voice an opinion either way at this time. Appearance Control Commis n -6- U December 9, 1976 Commissioner Garfield stated that he would like to explore the matter further, and stated that even though he was opposed to this sign, he felt that the merchant was entitled to a viable alternative. Commissioner Schroeder stated that he would like to explore it further. Commissioner Kearns stated that he would like to explore it further, stating that with the help of the merchants something could be decided upon. Commissioner Quick stated that he felt there were other options. Commissioner Hefler stated that he would go along with exploration as a posture, not necessarily as acquiescence to the concept. Commissioner Haardt stated that he would like to keep it open. Commissioner Tolle stated that he would like to explore it further. At this time Chairman Heinrich stated that he would like to set another meeting to get some of the other merchants involved to come up with a viable solution in as expeditious a timeframe as possible, possibly looking into other ordinances in other communities. Mr. Hymen stated that he would start investigating as many as he could find, and would start talking to the sign people, developers, etc., and try to get as many pictures of the signs that have been used as possible for the next meeting, and stated that this was a committee type of thing which should be worked out. It was agreed that another workshop session could be held on this matter, possibly another joint session on January 13th. Chairman Heinrich stated that at the next Zoning Board meeting, a recommendation would be made to the Village Board that a public hearing be made to amend the Zon,ng Ordinance prohibiting temporary signs immediately. It was decided that the Appearance Commission could meet for their regular meeting on January 13th at 7:30, and that the joint commission meeting for the workshop session could begin at 8:00. The Appearance Commission adjourned to its regular business. Cambridge Commons Sign Package Mr. Jim Ray, Architect, presented drawings of a proposed sign, giving the sign size and layout, showing the colors, and giving samples of colors. He stated that the sign proposed would be reasonably like Plaza Verde in the tenant sign program, using individually internally illuminated letters, possibly all one color, but maybe allowing a few colors which would be compatible with the background of the original scheme. Mr. Ray showed all of the colors available in the Plexiglass line and had selected a few which he felt were compatible with the redwood background, for consideration. He stated that maybe all the signs should be the same color, but stated that the leasing agent felt that some flexibility should be allowed, within a predetermined range. He Appearance Control Conss ion -7- \.J December 9, 1976 stated that the letters would be individual and framed with a side casing which would be in the dark duranodic bronze. He stated that it was suggested to him that maybe the sides of the signs on each letter not be the dark duranodic bronze, but be painted the aluminum of the face color of the sign, so that any letter which would be slightly angular to the sign, might be visible to Dundee Road, which might be considered the main road, therefore making more letter visibility. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that he felt that as far as uniformity it was good to have variable colors, and also good to have the angular sides of the letters painted was a good idea. Color was then discussed, and Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that he did not know how good blue would show up at night, as with Plaza Verde. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that the use of corporate shields, crests, and insigne used by his committee would not be in keeping with what this Commission has been doing and that sometimes logos are not very good in limitation of space, etc. Mr. Ray indicated that this might could be ruled out, and that he would have a uniform package. Commissioner Tolle suggested that perhaps on the sign package he might like to see a variation of color in the names, and Mr. Ray suggested that he would like to see a four or five color selection. Commissioner Hardt suggested that the earth tones be used, deleting the blue, stating that he felt the blue did not fit in with the other colors, and brought up the question as to whether there would be any specification as to where the colors would be placed as far as uniformity. Mr. Ray stated that as of this time there were no specific tenant requests, but that they were willing to work out a pleasing arrangement as far as color as tenants moved in, subject to approval. Mr. Ray agreed to eliminate any sign logos as to specific shields, crests, or insigne from the package, as far as product identification, and to deal with that separately to conform to the uniform sign package. Plexiglass colors for signs were discussed, and it was agreed upon that the Blue, #2324, would be eliminated, that among colors to be considered would be Yellow #2016, Yellow #2037, Yellow #2325, and Yellow #2465, Orange #2119, Orange #2564 and Ivory #2146, upon approval of the Appearance Commission. It was also stated that in the Sign Re gelation Proposal for Cambridge Commons Sec Dundee Road and Buffalo Grove Roads, Buffalo Grove, Illinois by James Milton Ray & Associates, Arthitects-Engineers, dated December 1, 1976, under Article IV. Permitted Signing: Section D. - "Specifi- cations for Illuminated Lettering, " Item #10 should be changed to "Stroke width of flat colored plastic portion of letters to be maximum 8" and minimum 4" unless otherwise approved by the committee. " rather than the 3" as stated therein. Commissioner Rosenfeld made a motion that the sign package for Cambridge Commons be accepted with the stipulation that the following modifications in the package be made: Under Paragraph III, Subparagraph F. under Article IV. Permitted Signing: Section D to read "Stroke width of flat colored plastic portion of letters to be maximum 8" and minimum 4" unless otherwise approved by the committee" and Subparagraph E: Approved Appearance Control Commis:, -8- December 9, 1976 Face Colors: the deletion of 5, Blue #2324 and substituting in its place Yellow #2037 and adding Yellow #2016 and Orange #2119. And also the stipulation would be that in Paragraph D of Section 4, there would be the stipulation that the aluminum in-trim cap returns of letters to have first and second coat of baked enamel finsish deleting the dark bronze color and the color now to match the color of the plexiglass in sign face, and to delete the balance of the line that refers to the store front material. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Hardt, and a voice vote indicated unanimous passage. Commissioner Rosenfeld made a motion that under Section V. , Paragraph P, it would now end "Except as approved by the sign committee. " The motion was seconded by Commissioner Hardt and was carried. Mr. Ray brought up the subject of a sign for the center, and it was the unanimous decision that this sign could not be approved. Mr. Thomas W. Strey, Koenig & Strey, Glenview, Illinois Mr. Strey stated that they were developing the 13 stores at the Southwest corner of' Buffalo Grove Road and Dundee Road, and presented plans, stating that they were trying to create something other than a straight store-type strip situation, that they had chosen a French-Country type of appearance for the archtertme, hoping to have a very light bright type of appearance for the building, with the brick being a white-faced brick on all four sides of the building, being accented by a blue wood trim which would be continued around the windows, being a natural anodized aluminum with a clear glazing. He proposed that there would be a sign fascia that runs around the complete sides of the building with a mansard, which would above have a cedar shake roof. The lighting would be a recess light in the overhang. He stated that most of the stores were recessed and that they would be broken up by bay windows in four of the stores. Commissioner Rosenfeld inquired as to mechanical equipment, and Mr. Strey stated that it would be roof-top equipment. Commissioner Rosenfeld said he felt that there should be some type of screening for the equipment, due to the residential in back of the buildings. Mr. Strey stated that the lanterns shown on the buildings are the ones shown in the Sternberg Lanterns booklet, #8575, and will be functional. It was stated that the back doors would be hollow metal, and the front doors would be wood. It was also stated that the 'gas meters could be indbrporated within the space for each tennant using a glass block window to read the meter to keep the back elevation as clean as possible, and also electrical service meters could be inside, with the transformer in back of the service drive. It was stated that in respect to the architecture and more importantly to the fire and police protection, the landscaping had been kept relatively simple. Three inch trees would be used, as will large quantities of evergreens in both the parking lot and the outside perimeter area. It was stated that in the courtyard, all of the buildings are decorated with some type of evergreen in a brick planting area in front of most entrances, and evergreens on all sides, plus burning bushes for color and foliage, the back side would have a large screen planting. Appearance Control Comn�sion -9- December 9, 1976 Commissioner Rosenfeld inquired as to the reason for the use of galvanized roof material and iron coping rather than aluminum, stating the cost was about the same, and it was stated that this change could be made. Mr. Strey stated that along the back some sharp cut-off lighting would be used and would be confined to the site. Commissioner Rosenfeld requested that the back of the buildings be studied as to dressing up with moldings on the back doors or something equivalent. The question of the roof-top mechanical equipment was again discussed, and it was de- cided that screening of that equipment would definitely be necessary, in the form of possibly clustering them and using a phony type of mansard roof. It was stated that Federal Sign has a package which will be presented at a later date. Commissioner Tolle inquired as to the stockade fence around the rubbish area, and it was stated that it will be a six foot fence which will be left natural. Plantings around the • fence and in the courtyard were discussed. It was stated that courtyard seating would not be included. Commissioner Tolle stated that he felt that salt used on the courtyard in the winter could cause damage to the evergreens, and it was stated that some other compound than salt was contemplated for that use. Acting Chairman Helms inquired as to the height of the trees in relation to the parking lot and it was stated that the trees could be put in about sixteen inches above the surface of the asphalt when they go in. He also stated that he would like to see a little more screening from the parking lot area. It was also stated that the planting would follow the specifications of the Illinois Landscape Contractors Association. Acting Chairman Helms also mentioned that on the South property line, which was a rear view of the building with the honeysucle hedge, there should be a few trees in that row to break the long roof line. Commissioner Rosenfeld stated that the refuse area needed work as far as fitting in the dumpsters, and also that the loading berth is where the planter is, and also stated that the parking spaces would have to be designed going the opposite direction as what they are shown on the present plan. He stated that precast parking bumpers would be needed to protect the planting area, or dropping the stalls to perhaps 18'. Sergeant Blanchette stated that as far as police protection, there was some concern as to the lighting in the courtyard, and also stated that it was felt that with the direction of the traffic stalls, there would be a problem, and also that in the back of Building A, with the shrubbery screening discussed, there would be concern as to the security problem, and it was stated that it was anticipated that a smaller version of the lanterns would be used to light up the back area. Mr. Fennell inquired as to whether or not the fire situation had been brought up as re- gards this building, and it was stated that the conclusion was that this was the best workable solution for the size of this lot. It was agreed that this project would be tabled and some of the matters discussed would be worked out and presented at a future meeting. Appearance Control Commisn -10- L, December 9, 1976 Heritage Place - C. A. Hemphill & Associates Mr. William D. Lyman of C. A. Hemphill & Associates, and Mr. Frank of Schiller and . Frank were present to show a presentation of two variations of the same home, one being for a corner lot, where the garage could be taken to the side, the main plan being #110, and the plan for the switched garage being Plan #111. Commissioner Rosenfeld inquired as to other siding options, and it was stated that there was a cedar option, but that it would add about $6, 000 to the price of the home. The octagonal windows were discussed, and it was stated that the flashing comes with the window, therefore preventing leakage. After thorough discussion of the model presented, Commissioner Rosenfeld made a motion to accept the five elevations as presented with their opposite hand variations, with the stipulation that materials, methods of construction, siting, and monotony criteria as stipulated for all previous Hemphill Heratige models are adhered to, as to the five elevations of House Type 110 A, B, and C, and 111 A and B. Commissioner Hardt seconded the motion, and a voice vote indicated unanimous passage. It was asked that in the past approval of one of the original models in the 60 series, there was a desire to change a floor plan and move it out two feet. In so doing, the upstairs bedroom area would remain the same, changing the lower level family room area and the mid-level living room. The shape of the house would remain the same. The main change would be to add extra windows in the living room. Commissioner Rosenfeld made a motion to accept Model Home Type 63 A, B, and C and their opposite versions as a plan variation for Model Type 61 A, B, and C. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Hardt, and a voice vote indicated unanimous passage. Business completed, the motion was made, seconded and passed to adjourn. T ime: 12:00. Respectfully submitted, -- ,7f)%ri(-41CA7LO Sarah Lewis Recording Secretary Approved: