1983-03-10 - Appearance Commission - Minutes APPEARANCE COMMISSION
VILLAGE OF BUFFALO GROVE, ILL.
THURS. , MAR. 10, 1983
I. CALL TO ORDER
Chairman Don Hardt called the meeting to order at 7:36 P.M. on Thursday,
March 10, 1983 at the Village Hall .
II. ROLL CALL
Commissioners Present: B. Gibbs, C. Cea, K. Krippes, E. Larsen, D. Hardt.
Commissioner Absent: C. Zusel
Building Department: Dominic J. Saviano, Jr. , Deputy Bldg. Commissioner
III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
February 24, 1983 - Com. Larsen noted that the reference to the Burger King
Drive Thru Menu Board was written as Reader Board.
With this correction, Com. Cea made a motion to approve
the February 24, 1983 minutes. Com. Gibbs seconded.
Roll Call Vote was taken. Aye - All attending Commissioners.
Minutes will be placed on file as corrected.
IV. BUSINESS (OLD)
A. Hyatt Legal Services - H & R Block
Since Mr. Frank Morelli of Strathmore Square shopping center had not
arrived, the order of the Agenda was reversed.
V. BUSINESS (NEW)
A. St. Paul Federal Savings & Loan - - Formerly Manning Savings
Mr. Mike Fishman
Mr. Fishman made the presentation of the new sign face. It will be
bronze with White Lettering and the St. Paul Logo. The whole sign
will remain the same. The time sequence on the clock/temp. will be
the same.
There were no questions from any Commissioner.
Com. Cea made the following motion:
I move we accept the sign face change
from Manning Savings to St. Paul Federal
as submitted and as per the discussion.
Com. Larsen seconded the motion. Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen
Gibbs
Krippes
Cea
Hardt
Nay - None
Motion passed 5 to 0.
Mr. Morelli still not present, Mr. Saviano brought up a few items:
A. HIDDEN LAKES - Mr. Jerry Pfeffer has requested a color change
for the plywood from the dark color to Olympic Opague - FAWN.
The trim color will be as proposed. Mr. Pfeffer's letter is on
file. The models will be repainted.
There were no objections. Com. Gibbs made the following motion:
I move we approve the color change
for Hidden Lakes as requested:
The plywood will be Olympic
Opague Stain - Fawn Color.
Trim to remain the same as
previously approved.
Com. Cea seconded the motion.
Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen
Gibbs
Cea
Krippes
Hardt
Nay - None
Motion Passed 5 to 0.
B. ST. MARY'S PHARMACY - At the Medical Center on Dundee Road
east of the Golf Course and west of the Bank. On wall facing East.
Mr. Saviano asked the Commission to evaluate the proposed sign.
The building has been modified. A window has been replaced by
a door to the Pharmacy. The sign would be placed on the 'roof'
mansard. A sketch was presented but in addition to the name -
St. Mary's Pharmacy - the owner would like to include Buffalo
Grove. The letter styles were quite different and the AC did not
think they were compatible. The sign would be allowed and would
be treated as a wall sign, with the height not to exceed 1/2 of
the mansard. It was noted, that should the owner desire to have
a space on the pylon sign in the future, he would have to limit
(or reduce) the size of the proposed sign to 20% of the area.
The comments of the Commission follow:
1 . Mixed letter styles - Not acceptable as presented.
2. Spacing not good. Letters too close as depicted.
3. Letter "A" in St. Mary's not the same alphabet style.
4. Would Buffalo Grove fit? Where? How?
5. Colors should be presented.
6. Slope of the can was uncertain - 1 ft. is quite deep.
7. There should be no exposed conduit.
8. Would the can be painted out to match the background
or would it match the building trim color?
Mr. Saviano said he would discuss the sign with the owner and since
it could be a very expensive sign (up to $3,000) there could be other
alternatives, such as an addition to the existing sign that would be
seen from both directions.
APPEARANCE COMMISSION
March 10, 1983 - Page Two
OLD BUSINESS
A. Because Mr. Morelli never did come, the HYATT LEGAL SERVICES-
H & R BLOCK sign was discussed.
Representing Hyatt Legal Services - Mr. Russell H. Boothe, Attorney
Acme/Wiley Signs - Mr. Williams
Representing H & R Block Mr. Michael Listerman and from
Courtesy Signs - Mr. William Murphy
A letter from Mr. Frank Morelli , Bernard J. Katz & Co. was presented
by Mr. Saviano, requesting approval of the signs with variations in
color, letter sizes and use of two colors on the Hyatt sign.
The proposed compromise plan suggested by the Appearance Commission
on Feb. 10, 1983 has been rejected by Mr. Morelli . A new sign was
presented by Mr. Williams for Hyatt Legal Services. The height of the
HYATT letters would be 15 inches and the color - Ivory illuminated.
Legal Services would be un-illuminated bronze letters - 6 inches in
height.
H & R BLOCK meets the requirements of the Sign Package for the Strath-
more Square shopping center that was designed by Mr. Morelli . Mr. Lister-
man requested action on his sign because the tax season is coming to a
close and he needs to have identification.
The absence of Mr. Morelli created problem because of the many differ-
ences requested by Hyatt. Ch. Hardt said that one problem is the fact
that one store front is being used for two signs. The precedent has
been set by other businesses that occupy the same premises. Another
problem is the request for two colors on one sign, neither color being
approved in the Sign Package. The Ivory would be individual , internal-
ly illuminated letters. The Bronze would be cut out letters in bronze
to match the returns on the Ivory Hyatt letters. In previous meetings,
it was emphasized that Hyatt Legal Services is the name of the firm and
the entire name is necessary.
Mr. Boothe said he was there to represent Hyatt, but he actually has no
authority to have anything excpet the proposed sign approved as submitted.
The reason Mr. Morelli would not approve the proposal made by the AC to
use the 5 feet of additional space to the West of the store front is be-
cause he would like to use that space to identify offices in the rear of
the building.
The AC discussed many possible solutions to the problem. Spacing was a
factor and how to use the total 20 feet to the best advantage. The sug-
gestion to allow each business 10 feet with the stipulation that each
sign must be 1-1/2 feet from the outer edge of its portion was the most
agreeable with the Commissioners and the petitioners.
The colors presented a difficult situation because the Commission does
not want the center to have all White signs with one exception. The
fact that Legal Services would disappear at night, if they are bronze,
brought up the question of who important the whole name really is. The
Commissioners preferred all White letters, illuminated, including the
small 6 inch letters. Mr. Williams said this was possible though it
would be difficult, even unlit white letters with painted bronze returns.
The letters would be spread out more than the drawing shows because they
would be in a larger space. Letters must have the same space top and
Com. Larsen drew a sketch of the proposal , allowing the size of / bottom.
Hyatt Legal Service letters to be granted a variation as a compromise.
APPEARANCE COMMISSION
March 10, 1983 - Page Three
Much more discussion took place, including the possibility of using
8 inch letters for 3 lines as the Hyatt Legal Service business card
depicted. Once again, Mr. Boothe said he could not agree to anything
without the approval of the Kansas office.
Ch. Hardt asked for a Straw Poll to determine the opinion of each
Commissioner. He informed the petitioners that the Commission would
either table the proposal or vote. If the vote is negative, an appeal
can be made to the Village Board. The Poll was to determine:
A. As Presented, Hyatt in two colors, Ivory/Bronze
B. As per Com. Larsen's drawing,
All White, illuminated letters.
1-1/2 foot borders on East and West
Equal distances at top and bottom.
H & R BLOCK - 12 inch letters--White.
Hyatt Legal Services - 15" and 6" letters - White.
C. Hyatt )
Legal ) Three lines - 8 inch letters ,
Services) White, illuminated
H & R BLOCK, as submitted and approved, 2/10/83.
Com. Larsen - Plan B or C. A is not acceptable.
Com. Cea - Plan B or C. All should be illuminated white letters.
Com. Krippes- Plan B or C. All should be illuminated white letters.
Com. Gibbs - Plan B. All white, illuminated letters.
Ch. Hardt - Plan B is the preferable compromise. All letters should
be White. The AC would allow the larger and smaller
letters. The Commission is also allowing 2 signs for one
business location; and concession of allowing over 1/2 of
the height of fascia for signs.
Mr. Williams asked about the three line, 8 inch letter suggestion. But
approval for this must be given by both Hyatt and Mr. Morelli , so it was
not considered for approval at this time.
Mr. Saviano halted the discussion with the statement that too much time
is being wasted, and he noted that the AC should not have to design or
make suggestions when there is a sign package for a center. Mr. Morelli
chose not to be here and the sign package calls for all signs to be il -
luminated white individual letters. Action must be taken so that the
meeting can proceed to the planned workshop.
Mr. Williams agreed that he could fabricate the 6 inch white letters.
Mr. Boothe repeated the need for approval from Kansas office, stating
that all Hyatt Legal Services signage must be uniform across the country.
Mr. Listerman agreed with the proposal to vote on Hyatt Legal Services,
all white illuminated letters.
Ch. Hardt stated the Commission understood the need for H & R Block to
get the sign up before the end of the tax season, but he noted that it
L is necessary to approve the signage as one sign, so that should Hyatt
not put up a sign, the space would not have one side blank.
APPEARANCE COMMISSION
March 10, 1983 - Page Four
Com. Larsen made the following motion:
I move we approve signage requested for the
Strathmore Square Shopping Center for tenants:
H & R Block and Hyatt Legal Services
with the following stipulations:
1 . Each tenant will be assigned a hypothetical
10 lineal feet of frontage and they can utilize
7 feet of that 10 feet for the signage requested,
allowing a minimum of 1-1/2 feet from each end of
that 10 feet.
2. All letters will be fabricated with bronze returns
and white plastic facing; internally illuminated
with white neon tubing.
3. Overall height of the word HYATT will be 15 inches,
with 9 inches of spacing between it and the 6 inch
letters of the words Legal Services. Overall height
to be 30 inches.
4. H & R BLOCK letters will be 12 inches with a space
of 6 inches between H & R and BLOCK for an overall
height of 30 inches.
5. Sign to be approved by Mr. Morelli and Hyatt Legal
Services district office in Kansas.
6. Electrical disconnects, if not internal , shall be
painted out to match the background.
7. IF, for some reason, both signs do not go up as
approved, either sign must be re-centered within
30 days of notification.
Com. Gibbs seconded the motion.
Discussion followed concerning the possibility of having only one
part of the sign put up, and the other tenant does not put up the
other half of the sign - then the sign that is up should be re-
located to the center of the space.
Mr. Listerman agreed that he would move the H & R BLOCK sign, should
the Hyatt Legal Services not approve the sign as described above.
Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen, Gibbs, Cea, Krippes, Hardt
Nay - None
Motion Passed 5 to 0. Permit not to be issued without approval of
all parties concerned.
VI. ADJOURNMENT
Com. Larsen made a motion to adjourn to the Workshop session.
Com. Krippes seconded the motion.
Voice Vote was Aye Unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 9:35 P.M.
APPEARANCE COMMISSION
March 10, 1983 - Page Five
9:45 P.M. SIGN CODE WORKSHOP
The Commissioners began discussing the Sign Code and the general changes that
should be made.
One major concern is with the copy that is allowed on signs. The Commissioners
agreed all petitioners should be allowed a sign that gives the Name and Nature of
the business. But the definition of the word 'Nature' is not clear and allows
the possibility of advertising to be included. Actually, most business names in-
clude the nature of the business (i .e. Hardt's Hot Dogs, but not Hardt's
Vienna Hot Dogs; Larsen's Law Offices, etc. ) The possibility of having a store
identified as just the nature, such as Wallpaper, etc. was addressed and there
is a need for clarification so that names will be allowed/or name and nature.
Other than Name and Nature, the AC wants to prohibit as much advertising as pos-
sible. Advertising is allowed on off-premise signs, and therefore Sec. 14.04.020
(Page 232) Purpose A. is correct.
Section 14.20.030 (Page 253) Section C needs clear definitions of Name and Nature.
A question arose over what "exhorts" means in Sec. 14.09.010 (Page 235) .
As per Webster's Dictionary - exhort, vt: to incite by argument or advice;
urge strongly
Section 14.08.025 (Page 236) - Advertising message. Definition needs clarification.
Com. Larsen submitted copies of two model sign ordinances in which the definitions
have been simplified. Copies shall be made of these definitions for all commissioners.
Section 14.08.035 (Page 236) —Need changing because the AC does not review the
permit applications. They review sign designs as they relate to the stipulations
of the sign ordinance.
No further discussion was held because it was 10:45 P.M.
Respec fully submitted,
Shirley Bat Secretary
Appearance Commission
APPEARANCE COMMISSION
March 10, 1983 - Page Six