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1983-03-10 - Appearance Commission - Minutes APPEARANCE COMMISSION VILLAGE OF BUFFALO GROVE, ILL. THURS. , MAR. 10, 1983 I. CALL TO ORDER Chairman Don Hardt called the meeting to order at 7:36 P.M. on Thursday, March 10, 1983 at the Village Hall . II. ROLL CALL Commissioners Present: B. Gibbs, C. Cea, K. Krippes, E. Larsen, D. Hardt. Commissioner Absent: C. Zusel Building Department: Dominic J. Saviano, Jr. , Deputy Bldg. Commissioner III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES February 24, 1983 - Com. Larsen noted that the reference to the Burger King Drive Thru Menu Board was written as Reader Board. With this correction, Com. Cea made a motion to approve the February 24, 1983 minutes. Com. Gibbs seconded. Roll Call Vote was taken. Aye - All attending Commissioners. Minutes will be placed on file as corrected. IV. BUSINESS (OLD) A. Hyatt Legal Services - H & R Block Since Mr. Frank Morelli of Strathmore Square shopping center had not arrived, the order of the Agenda was reversed. V. BUSINESS (NEW) A. St. Paul Federal Savings & Loan - - Formerly Manning Savings Mr. Mike Fishman Mr. Fishman made the presentation of the new sign face. It will be bronze with White Lettering and the St. Paul Logo. The whole sign will remain the same. The time sequence on the clock/temp. will be the same. There were no questions from any Commissioner. Com. Cea made the following motion: I move we accept the sign face change from Manning Savings to St. Paul Federal as submitted and as per the discussion. Com. Larsen seconded the motion. Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen Gibbs Krippes Cea Hardt Nay - None Motion passed 5 to 0. Mr. Morelli still not present, Mr. Saviano brought up a few items: A. HIDDEN LAKES - Mr. Jerry Pfeffer has requested a color change for the plywood from the dark color to Olympic Opague - FAWN. The trim color will be as proposed. Mr. Pfeffer's letter is on file. The models will be repainted. There were no objections. Com. Gibbs made the following motion: I move we approve the color change for Hidden Lakes as requested: The plywood will be Olympic Opague Stain - Fawn Color. Trim to remain the same as previously approved. Com. Cea seconded the motion. Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen Gibbs Cea Krippes Hardt Nay - None Motion Passed 5 to 0. B. ST. MARY'S PHARMACY - At the Medical Center on Dundee Road east of the Golf Course and west of the Bank. On wall facing East. Mr. Saviano asked the Commission to evaluate the proposed sign. The building has been modified. A window has been replaced by a door to the Pharmacy. The sign would be placed on the 'roof' mansard. A sketch was presented but in addition to the name - St. Mary's Pharmacy - the owner would like to include Buffalo Grove. The letter styles were quite different and the AC did not think they were compatible. The sign would be allowed and would be treated as a wall sign, with the height not to exceed 1/2 of the mansard. It was noted, that should the owner desire to have a space on the pylon sign in the future, he would have to limit (or reduce) the size of the proposed sign to 20% of the area. The comments of the Commission follow: 1 . Mixed letter styles - Not acceptable as presented. 2. Spacing not good. Letters too close as depicted. 3. Letter "A" in St. Mary's not the same alphabet style. 4. Would Buffalo Grove fit? Where? How? 5. Colors should be presented. 6. Slope of the can was uncertain - 1 ft. is quite deep. 7. There should be no exposed conduit. 8. Would the can be painted out to match the background or would it match the building trim color? Mr. Saviano said he would discuss the sign with the owner and since it could be a very expensive sign (up to $3,000) there could be other alternatives, such as an addition to the existing sign that would be seen from both directions. APPEARANCE COMMISSION March 10, 1983 - Page Two OLD BUSINESS A. Because Mr. Morelli never did come, the HYATT LEGAL SERVICES- H & R BLOCK sign was discussed. Representing Hyatt Legal Services - Mr. Russell H. Boothe, Attorney Acme/Wiley Signs - Mr. Williams Representing H & R Block Mr. Michael Listerman and from Courtesy Signs - Mr. William Murphy A letter from Mr. Frank Morelli , Bernard J. Katz & Co. was presented by Mr. Saviano, requesting approval of the signs with variations in color, letter sizes and use of two colors on the Hyatt sign. The proposed compromise plan suggested by the Appearance Commission on Feb. 10, 1983 has been rejected by Mr. Morelli . A new sign was presented by Mr. Williams for Hyatt Legal Services. The height of the HYATT letters would be 15 inches and the color - Ivory illuminated. Legal Services would be un-illuminated bronze letters - 6 inches in height. H & R BLOCK meets the requirements of the Sign Package for the Strath- more Square shopping center that was designed by Mr. Morelli . Mr. Lister- man requested action on his sign because the tax season is coming to a close and he needs to have identification. The absence of Mr. Morelli created problem because of the many differ- ences requested by Hyatt. Ch. Hardt said that one problem is the fact that one store front is being used for two signs. The precedent has been set by other businesses that occupy the same premises. Another problem is the request for two colors on one sign, neither color being approved in the Sign Package. The Ivory would be individual , internal- ly illuminated letters. The Bronze would be cut out letters in bronze to match the returns on the Ivory Hyatt letters. In previous meetings, it was emphasized that Hyatt Legal Services is the name of the firm and the entire name is necessary. Mr. Boothe said he was there to represent Hyatt, but he actually has no authority to have anything excpet the proposed sign approved as submitted. The reason Mr. Morelli would not approve the proposal made by the AC to use the 5 feet of additional space to the West of the store front is be- cause he would like to use that space to identify offices in the rear of the building. The AC discussed many possible solutions to the problem. Spacing was a factor and how to use the total 20 feet to the best advantage. The sug- gestion to allow each business 10 feet with the stipulation that each sign must be 1-1/2 feet from the outer edge of its portion was the most agreeable with the Commissioners and the petitioners. The colors presented a difficult situation because the Commission does not want the center to have all White signs with one exception. The fact that Legal Services would disappear at night, if they are bronze, brought up the question of who important the whole name really is. The Commissioners preferred all White letters, illuminated, including the small 6 inch letters. Mr. Williams said this was possible though it would be difficult, even unlit white letters with painted bronze returns. The letters would be spread out more than the drawing shows because they would be in a larger space. Letters must have the same space top and Com. Larsen drew a sketch of the proposal , allowing the size of / bottom. Hyatt Legal Service letters to be granted a variation as a compromise. APPEARANCE COMMISSION March 10, 1983 - Page Three Much more discussion took place, including the possibility of using 8 inch letters for 3 lines as the Hyatt Legal Service business card depicted. Once again, Mr. Boothe said he could not agree to anything without the approval of the Kansas office. Ch. Hardt asked for a Straw Poll to determine the opinion of each Commissioner. He informed the petitioners that the Commission would either table the proposal or vote. If the vote is negative, an appeal can be made to the Village Board. The Poll was to determine: A. As Presented, Hyatt in two colors, Ivory/Bronze B. As per Com. Larsen's drawing, All White, illuminated letters. 1-1/2 foot borders on East and West Equal distances at top and bottom. H & R BLOCK - 12 inch letters--White. Hyatt Legal Services - 15" and 6" letters - White. C. Hyatt ) Legal ) Three lines - 8 inch letters , Services) White, illuminated H & R BLOCK, as submitted and approved, 2/10/83. Com. Larsen - Plan B or C. A is not acceptable. Com. Cea - Plan B or C. All should be illuminated white letters. Com. Krippes- Plan B or C. All should be illuminated white letters. Com. Gibbs - Plan B. All white, illuminated letters. Ch. Hardt - Plan B is the preferable compromise. All letters should be White. The AC would allow the larger and smaller letters. The Commission is also allowing 2 signs for one business location; and concession of allowing over 1/2 of the height of fascia for signs. Mr. Williams asked about the three line, 8 inch letter suggestion. But approval for this must be given by both Hyatt and Mr. Morelli , so it was not considered for approval at this time. Mr. Saviano halted the discussion with the statement that too much time is being wasted, and he noted that the AC should not have to design or make suggestions when there is a sign package for a center. Mr. Morelli chose not to be here and the sign package calls for all signs to be il - luminated white individual letters. Action must be taken so that the meeting can proceed to the planned workshop. Mr. Williams agreed that he could fabricate the 6 inch white letters. Mr. Boothe repeated the need for approval from Kansas office, stating that all Hyatt Legal Services signage must be uniform across the country. Mr. Listerman agreed with the proposal to vote on Hyatt Legal Services, all white illuminated letters. Ch. Hardt stated the Commission understood the need for H & R Block to get the sign up before the end of the tax season, but he noted that it L is necessary to approve the signage as one sign, so that should Hyatt not put up a sign, the space would not have one side blank. APPEARANCE COMMISSION March 10, 1983 - Page Four Com. Larsen made the following motion: I move we approve signage requested for the Strathmore Square Shopping Center for tenants: H & R Block and Hyatt Legal Services with the following stipulations: 1 . Each tenant will be assigned a hypothetical 10 lineal feet of frontage and they can utilize 7 feet of that 10 feet for the signage requested, allowing a minimum of 1-1/2 feet from each end of that 10 feet. 2. All letters will be fabricated with bronze returns and white plastic facing; internally illuminated with white neon tubing. 3. Overall height of the word HYATT will be 15 inches, with 9 inches of spacing between it and the 6 inch letters of the words Legal Services. Overall height to be 30 inches. 4. H & R BLOCK letters will be 12 inches with a space of 6 inches between H & R and BLOCK for an overall height of 30 inches. 5. Sign to be approved by Mr. Morelli and Hyatt Legal Services district office in Kansas. 6. Electrical disconnects, if not internal , shall be painted out to match the background. 7. IF, for some reason, both signs do not go up as approved, either sign must be re-centered within 30 days of notification. Com. Gibbs seconded the motion. Discussion followed concerning the possibility of having only one part of the sign put up, and the other tenant does not put up the other half of the sign - then the sign that is up should be re- located to the center of the space. Mr. Listerman agreed that he would move the H & R BLOCK sign, should the Hyatt Legal Services not approve the sign as described above. Roll Call Vote: Aye - Larsen, Gibbs, Cea, Krippes, Hardt Nay - None Motion Passed 5 to 0. Permit not to be issued without approval of all parties concerned. VI. ADJOURNMENT Com. Larsen made a motion to adjourn to the Workshop session. Com. Krippes seconded the motion. Voice Vote was Aye Unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 9:35 P.M. APPEARANCE COMMISSION March 10, 1983 - Page Five 9:45 P.M. SIGN CODE WORKSHOP The Commissioners began discussing the Sign Code and the general changes that should be made. One major concern is with the copy that is allowed on signs. The Commissioners agreed all petitioners should be allowed a sign that gives the Name and Nature of the business. But the definition of the word 'Nature' is not clear and allows the possibility of advertising to be included. Actually, most business names in- clude the nature of the business (i .e. Hardt's Hot Dogs, but not Hardt's Vienna Hot Dogs; Larsen's Law Offices, etc. ) The possibility of having a store identified as just the nature, such as Wallpaper, etc. was addressed and there is a need for clarification so that names will be allowed/or name and nature. Other than Name and Nature, the AC wants to prohibit as much advertising as pos- sible. Advertising is allowed on off-premise signs, and therefore Sec. 14.04.020 (Page 232) Purpose A. is correct. Section 14.20.030 (Page 253) Section C needs clear definitions of Name and Nature. A question arose over what "exhorts" means in Sec. 14.09.010 (Page 235) . As per Webster's Dictionary - exhort, vt: to incite by argument or advice; urge strongly Section 14.08.025 (Page 236) - Advertising message. Definition needs clarification. Com. Larsen submitted copies of two model sign ordinances in which the definitions have been simplified. Copies shall be made of these definitions for all commissioners. Section 14.08.035 (Page 236) —Need changing because the AC does not review the permit applications. They review sign designs as they relate to the stipulations of the sign ordinance. No further discussion was held because it was 10:45 P.M. Respec fully submitted, Shirley Bat Secretary Appearance Commission APPEARANCE COMMISSION March 10, 1983 - Page Six