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1999-02-03 - Plan Commission - Minutes REGULAR MEETING BUFFALO GROVE PLAN COMMISSION February 3, 1999 Northwest Suburban Jewish Community Center(JCC), proposed pre-school at Woodland Commons Shopping Center,Half Day Road (IL Route 22) Amendment of approved Planned Unit Development(P.U.D.)And Preliminary Plan --Workshop#3 Zale Companies,River Oaks subdivision,Prairie Road adjacent to Indian Creek,Annexation with zoning in the R-3 District and approval of a Preliminary Plan—Workshop #1 Buffalo Grove Town Center,Unit 9—Plat of Resubdivision Burger King site Chairman Goldspiel called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. in the Village Council Chambers, Buffalo Grove Municipal Building, 50 Raupp Boulevard, Buffalo Grove, Illinois. Commissioners present: Chairman Goldspiel Mr. Krug Mr. Samuels Mr. Berman Mr. Trilling Mr. Ottenheimer Mr. Moons Mr. Viehman Commissioners absent: Ms. Howard Also present: Mr. Lawrence Freedman,Ash,Anos, Freedman& Logan Mr. Lee Brady, Jewish Community Centers of Chicago Mr. Gerald Lindgren, KLOA Mr. Stuart Lenhoff, Childs Realty Group Mr. Jamie Childs, Childs Realty Group �./ Ms. Linda Newman,Northwest Suburban Jewish Community Center Mr. Leon Joffe, Zale Homes Mr. Gordon White,Zale Homes Mr. John Martin, Jen Land Design, Inc. Ms. DeAnn Glover, Village Trustee Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 1 Mr. Robert Pfeil, Village Planner Mr. Andy Carlson,Associate Village Planner APPROVAL OF MINUTES Moved by Commissioner Krug, seconded by Commissioner Samuels to approve the minutes of the public hearing and regular meeting of January 6, 1999. Commissioner Berman stated the word"generator" should be substituted for the word"center"on page 7 of the regular meeting. All Commissioners were in favor of the amended motion and the motion passed unanimously with Commissioner Ottenheimer abstaining. COMMITTEE AND LIAISON REPORTS Mr. Pfeil stated that Commissioner Howard attended the Village board meeting on February 1, 1999 and reported that the Veterinary Specialty Clinic was referred to the Plan Commission as a special use for veterinary services in the Industrial District. Chairman Goldspiel asked if this means the previous special uses for veterinary services approved by the Commission would not be used. Mr. Pfeil noted that the petitioner indicates that both of the veterinarians who received the previous special uses are part of this practice group and would ultimately vacate the prior special uses. Commissioner Krug stated he attended the zoning sub-committee meeting where there was a review of the business districts. Staff will be drafting amendments to present to the Plan Commission. He noted they also discussed day care centers for seniors, either in residential areas or shopping centers. This is something that needs to be looked into as the need will increase. NORTHWEST SUBURBAN JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER(JCC). PROPOSED PRE- SCHOOL AT WOODLAND COMMONS SHOPPING CENTER. HALF DAY ROAD (IL ROUTE 22) - AMENDMENT OF APPROVED PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (P.U.D.) AND PRELIMINARY PLAN -- WORKSHOP #3 Chairman Goldspiel noted the appropriate way to start this discussion would be with a motion to reconsider. Moved by Commissioner Ottenheimer, seconded by Commissioner Berman to reconsider the vote taken at the last workshop and have further discussion, in consideration of the new materials received and new information and changes in amendments to the plan. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 2 Chairman Goldspiel called for a vote on the motion and the vote was as follows: AYES: Krug, Samuels, Berman, Trilling, Ottenheimer, Moons, Viehman, Goldspiel NAYES: None ABSENT: Howard ABSTAIN: None The motion passed 8 to 0. Mr. Freedman noted he had sent a letter to the Village board after the last meeting in response to the issues which the Plan Commission had been dissatisfied by. He stated they would like to highlight the points addressed in this letter Mr. Freedman stated the first issue was regarding the Response Center. He noted they have now unequivocally withdrawn it from their proposal and the plan has been amended to delete any references to same. Chairman Goldspiel asked if it could be assumed that there was no change to the plan other than the removal of the Response Center and use of the mezzanine for storage space. Mr. Freedman stated that was correct. Mr. Brady noted the storage space would actually be JCC office area. Chairman Goldspiel noted it was noted on the plan as storage area. Mr. Freedman stated they believed the Plan Commission had suggested that area could be used for storage or for JCC use of offices only. Commissioner Krug noted the area is used for offices now. Secondly, Mr. Freedman stated they unequivocally agree to provide personnel at the curb at all times scheduled as pick up and drop off to enforce those restrictions and make sure there is not temporary parking there by parents intending to drop off their children. Mr. Freedman stated he also enclosed a letter from Childs Realty indicating the difficulties in leasing the entire facility up till now because of the restriction placed on the facility by Sears that \./ it be leased to a single user. Because they have been able to subdivide the space into two areas, they feel area two can be leased and quite possibly could be leased to a retail user. The report from Childs Realty also indicates that the method of dividing the space has made area one very undesirable for retail because of the frontage available. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 3 Mr. Freedman noted he had requested Childs Realty to circulate a letter amongst the most immediate tenants to indicate their support or lack thereof for the proposed project. The signatures of the tenants supporting the proposal is also herewith submitted. Lastly, Mr. Freedman noted there had been questions raised about the conclusions reached by Mr. Lindgren as to how the parking would work from the standpoint of whether or not the area surrounding the facility would accept any extraordinary circumstances and operate in full capacity or less than full capacity. Mr. Freedman noted that Mr. Lindgren had augmented his original report drawing the conclusion that except in unusual circumstances it would not be full capacity in the parking lot and the parking would be adequate. Commissioner Ottenheimer asked if it will be a new lease with the shopping center or if the JCC is taking over the Sears lease. Mr. Lenhoff stated it will be a new lease. Commissioner Ottenheimer asked why Sears is calling the shots instead of the shopping center. Mr. Freedman noted that Sears is obligated under the current lease. When they were approached with replacement tenants, they indicated they would not deal with multiple users. They stated they wanted only one entity for the entire 22,000 square feet in the form of a sublet or new lease. There are a lot more users requiring 11,000 square feet that the larger space. Now that the JCC is taking the responsibility for the whole space but only using half of it,the other half is much more leasable and it greatly increases the likelihood that the other user will be a retailer user. Commissioner Ottenheimer asked why Yen Yen Restaurant was not a signator on the approval sheet signed by other adjacent tenants. Mr. Childs stated at the time he was out garnering signatures there was no manager or owner at the restaurant. He was unable to get back to the restaurant but did try to get a hold of the owner without success several times. Commissioner Ottenheimer asked what Mr. Lindgren means by "unusual circumstances" in his report. Li Mr. Lindgren noted that when they do their estimates in a shopping center of this type, they anticipate a customer design peak in the range of about three parts vehicles per 1,000 square feet. That means that with respect to the 11,000 or so square feet that will be leased to a retail sales service type operation, it would be on a design day peak hour that they would hit that three customers per 1,000 ratio. In the unusual circumstance when you would get the peak retail design parking demand at the same time that you get 52 parked vehicles for the pre-school, then Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 4 the lot would be full. In terms of design hours for retail sales facilities,they are probably in the range of 15 to 30 hours out of the entire year and typically occur on Saturdays. Commissioner Ottenheimer asked if the parking configuration as it exists is sufficient given the Wendy's use and others coming in. Mr. Lindgren stated yes. He noted Wendy's is separated sufficiently to prevent an overlap. Commissioner Krug asked if any expansion is contemplated here if the facility is very successful. Mr. Freedman stated they could not expand physically here without coming back and getting approval from the Village to take more space, and that approval would be very unlikely. Commissioner Krug asked what impact there would be if the second space is rented out to a restaurant. Mr. Freedman noted there have been no restaurant uses showing any interest in the site. Secondly, he noted they would have to come before the Plan Commission and satisfy the parking need. For that reason they do not anticipate a restaurant user. Commissioner Berman asked if this parking configuration will have a 20 percent cushion in spaces in the vicinity of the store. Mr. Lindgren noted that typically a 15 percent cushion is used as the design standard in terms of the last parking space being occupied and in terms of circulation in the lot. He stated he feels there will be at least that much on all but a few hours on a few days out of the year where there is a potential for an"unusual circumstance". Most of the time you will have well over 15 to 20 percent. Commissioner Viehman asked about the operational hours for this facility. Ms. Newman, assistant director of the Buffalo Grove JCC, stated the hours would be 9:15 a.m. to 3:15 p.m. That would be classes for moms and tots and nursery school. They might do some after school classes for kindergarten to second grade from 3:30-4:30 p.m. By 3:15 p.m. the building would be pretty empty with perhaps about 20 children in a class to about 5:00 p.m. Commissioner Viehman asked what the staffing pattern will be. Ms. Newman stated there will be a director, full time receptionist/secretary plus eight classrooms. For nursery school there will be two teachers per classroom and for an enrichment type class there would be one teacher. The maximum would be 18 people and most likely less. Commissioner Viehman asked if those 16-18 people would be there throughout the day. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 5 Ms. Newman stated all of their teachers are part-time. She noted the mornings are typically much busier. From 1:45 p.m. it would become much less so and by 3:15 p.m. there might be only 4 to 5 teachers in the building. Commissioner Viehman asked if the personnel will occupy parking in the rear of the building. Mr. Freedman stated yes. Commissioner Viehman asked how occasional special events will be handled and what kind of numbers of people can be expected. Ms. Newman stated that such events here would probably be staggered among the classes because they will not be able to handle large numbers physically at this location. Commissioner Viehman asked about special programs for mothers and children. Ms. Newman stated seven classrooms will be used for nursery school age children. One room would be a baby gym and this is where classes for the mothers and tots would come for classes. Commissioner Viehman asked if everything on the first floor is fully physically accessible. Mr. Freedman stated yes. Commissioner Trilling asked if the new realty office was occupied at the time the traffic counts were conducted. Mr. Lindgren stated no. Commissioner Trilling asked if 63 parked cars with an unoccupied area plus a potential maximum of 50 cars for the proposed use plus 30 potential cars for the sub-lease-lease space, will there be any room for the realty company. Mr. Lindgren stated the existing shopping center has in excess of 900 spaces. This is about 200 spaces more than required by the code. There is additional space available in other locations. There are times when certain pockets of this center will probably fill up. But you will probably never get them all filled up at the exact same time. The times that something like that might happen might be on the Saturday before Thanksgiving or some other holiday. This will probably not happen at all in the mornings when this type of facility will peak. The remainder of the center will typically experience its peaks in the afternoon. However, there will be some overlap. Commissioner Trilling asked what the peak period for a realty office is. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 6 Mr. Lindgren stated the ones he has investigated have shown that there are some peaks on Saturdays and some peaks in the evenings when people are available for that kind of thing. Trustee Glover stated she is not sure what the size of that office will be but looks to be a minimum of 30 associates. She stated parking could be a problem as her own office has a problem and is much smaller. Mr. Lindgren noted the rear area for employees is not used much in this shopping center and he suggested that it is an outlet not only for real estate employees but anyone else in that facility who has employees parking in the front. Mr. Childs noted the realty company has put a glass door at the rear of the space and he anticipates most of the employees and sales people will be using that area to enter and leave through. Commissioner Trilling stated it is unrealistic to expect the realty office employees to park in the rear because of distance and the fact that realty people are always on the run and they will not park far just to be able to run in and pick up messages. Trustee Glover stated most of her associates meet clients and they would not take their clients through the back door. She further stated she just found out the office will have over 40 associates, not counting assistants and secretarial support staff. Commissioner Trilling asked how the JCC employees will enter the rear of their facility. Mr. Brady stated there are two choices which he pointed out on the plan. Commissioner Trilling stated the entrance at the storage area is not a good idea from the standpoint of security. The other entry which is confined within the fenced area would need to be locked when the children are there so it could be a problem for use as an entry for teachers and employees. Mr. Brady stated they would have to make arrangements because whenever children are in the fenced area the door is required to be locked. Commissioner Samuels asked how many facilities of this type are located in shopping centers. Mr. Brady stated this is the first one. Commissioner Berman moved and Commissioner Moons seconded a motion to recommend to the Village board approval of the request by the Northwest Suburban Jewish Community Center for the proposed pre-school at the Woodland Commons Shopping Center and the Amendment of a Planned Unit Development and a Preliminary Plan in accordance with the testimony and Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 7 materials presented at the last meeting and supplemented by the materials and testimony presented here tonight. Commissioner Berman stated he feels the petitioners have done a terrific job in being proactive, addressing issues presented at the last meeting. He noted he started with the premise that he is uncomfortable with a day care center in a shopping center generally. However,the testimony that if this space had been divided previously with one space leased to retail,this remaining space would still have been effectively unusable for retail. Therefore the Village is not losing prime retail space. He further stated he feels this particular location is unique because of the courtyard that is available for the playground which makes it somewhat different than the proposal at the Town Center. He noted how pleased he was that the JCC was willing to commit to having personnel outside to ward off any standing problem in front during pick up and drop off times. He was also pleased to see that the other tenants in the center wanted to see this proposal go through. Commissioner Ottenheimer stated he has a predisposition against day care centers in strip malls, due to his concern for the safety of the children. However, he noted the development team has responded well to the commissions concerns. He noted he is very pleased that they will be providing personnel to enforce the drop off rules. He also agrees that the Response Center was not a good fit and that it has been taken off the plan. Therefore based upon the changes that have been made and the representations made, he will give a favorable recommendation. Commissioner Trilling stated he wants to encourage the use of the employee parking area in the rear of the building and also urged that the entrances at the rear of center be made as acceptable as possible to facilitate entrance by employees. Commissioner Viehman stated he appreciated the additional information presented. There are still a number of concerns including: 1. The unknown lessor and the kind of traffic that lessor may well bring to an already fringe traffic pattern. 2. Concern with the traffic pattern that the new realty office will add as it is not viable for those realtors to park in the rear. l 3. Access for the JCC staff and making viable use of the parking in the rear. He said that he appreciates the unequivocal commitment by the JCC to provide personnel to manage the drop off situation and the fact that this is a very difficult space to lease and the leasing of this space to the JCC may help bolster some of the traffic pattern needed by the shopping center. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 8 Commissioner Samuels stated it is his opinion that this is not a plan but rather a reaction. The plan was that this be a retail shopping center and a source of revenue for the Village, of which there is precious little. The fact that this is a large space and it was deliberately built with a depressed truck loading dock stands to support that this was planned as a retail operation. He stated he believes the use is not consistent. The fact that the JCC will have to supply someone to monitor double parking in a fire lane speaks again to the inconsistency. This once again reinforces the fact that this use is inconsistent with the location and this has not changed with the removal of the Response Center. He also noted that this operator has 13 other sites and none of them are in shopping centers. He stated he feels this use is being made of expediency and not part of planning for the Village. Chairman Goldspiel stated this is not as desirable a reuse as the Jewish Community Center's reuse of the school building on Arlington Heights Road. This will not be the last need to redesign and reuse shopping center space. Retail procedures and customer bases have changed in the last 10 years and as an inevitable result of that, it will be necessary to find ways to reuse space that has been planned and approved and built as retail/commercial. It is time to think of ways to reuse some of the commercial space now that shopping patterns have changed. Commissioner Berman stated this is a unique site and what is being done is salvaging retail use in a portion of a storefront that is now dark. In this way we are utilizing that portion of the front store that otherwise is not usable or unlikely to be used in the foreseeable future for a retail generating type use. This plan will bring the type of people into the center and create indirect benefits for the other businesses. Chairman Goldspiel called for a vote on the motion and the vote was as follows: AYES: Krug, Berman, Trilling, Ottenheimer, Moons, Viehman, Goldspiel NAYES: Samuels ABSENT: Howard ABSTAIN: None The motion passed 7 to 1. ZALE COMPANIES, RIVER OAKS SUBDIVISION, PRAIRIE ROAD ADJACENT TO INDIAN CREEK, ANNEXATION WITH ZONING IN THE R-3 DISTRICT AND APPROVAL OF A PRELIMINARY PLAN -- WORKSHOP#1 Mr. Leon Joffe stated the subject site is located on Prairie Road just south of Route 45, noting they hope to receive a recommendation for approval of a preliminary plan and annexation by the Village of Buffalo Grove. Chairman Goldspiel noted that this site is not included in the Village's Comprehensive Plan and therefore the Plan Commission will have to delve deeper into the land use planning aspect of this Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 9 .,.i L/ project to make sure that all the pertinent issues are completely covered. Mr. John Martin of Jen Land Design, Inc. stated the site is just south of the creek and there is an existing subdivision, River Grove, at the corner of Route 45 and Prairie Road. The Schwartz subdivision is immediately to the south and west of the Sislow property on the west side of Prairie and immediately to the south of the Krueger property is a county subdivision existing on well and septic. The corporate boundaries of Buffalo Grove touch the bottom of the Sislow property. Mr. Martin noted the jewel of the property is its physical characteristics including the trees,the creek, which flows in a southeasterly direction and the natural topography. Mr. Martin stated they looked at the site to determine the best road system for the project which would maximize the site while preserving the natural elements of the site and as many trees as possible. Mr. Martin noted they show a roadway coming into the site at approximately the same location as an existing driveway does now. The road then comes down the slope and across and back up the slope in approximately the same location of the driveway turnaround in front of the existing house with a cul de sac. This allows them to preserve a great many trees for the rear yards of the homesites. This roadway also helps give some shape to the lots backing onto Prairie Road. The bulk of the lots will back onto the open space along the north and east property lines backing on to the Indian Creek open space area. He stated there will have to be a detention facility across the back of the lots as well as a major basin at the outfall area at the southeast corner of the site. Mr. Martin stated that in order to maximize the preservation of the site and since the east side of this property only deals with 23 lots,they felt it desirable to reduce the right-of-way section so that they do not have to push into the trees any more than necessary. Mr. Martin noted the Village board suggested looking into the possibility of sidewalks along the road system and the engineering plans show a walk system. He stated they would prefer sidewalk on one side of the system out to Prairie. A bikepath along the west side of Prairie makes some sense, however, a sidewalk on the east side of Prairie does not make much sense as there is nothing to connect to on the north. Mr. Martin stated they are proposing a minimal lot area of 10,000 square feet, although the average lot area is close to 14,000 square feet. He further noted they are proposing R-3 subdivision standards. He noted they are asking for a standard 8 foot side yard throughout so that each individual lot would not have to be calculated. They will provide 40 foot rear yards and 30 foot front yards. There a couple of cul de sac lots where the lot width is slightly less than the 80 feet at the building line. But because they are pie shaped lots, as they push off the building line and arbitrarily increase that setback,the lot width can accommodate the 80 foot minimum lot width. There are perhaps only three lots where they have a potential need for this Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 10 i :.� �� i kind of lot width variation. Mr. Martin noted there has been some concern by Mr. Rigsby regarding some of the trees near the detention areas. He noted that as many as 50 percent of those trees are transplantable and can be moved to the perimeter locations to add additional screening to the lots along Prairie as well as the south property line. Mr. Martin stated they are proposing 29 total lots, 23 on the Krueger property and 6 on the Sislow property. The overall gross site density for the two properties is around 1.5 units per acre. Mr. Gordon White of Zale Homes noted there are almost 800 trees on these two properties. He further noted the idea of developing this property is due in large part to the beauty of the trees. He stated it is in their interest to save as many of these trees as possible. However, stormwater detention is a necessity and some of this detention will have to occur in an area along the creek. He stated they will work with the Village to try to develop a program to save the trees. They will also try to site the homes on the lots to minimize the loss of trees wherever possible.. They will also provide fencing during construction to keep construction traffic out of the rear and sides of the sites and channel the traffic as much as possible into the area around the house which is being constructed. He noted that Buffalo Grove requires sump pump connections be made to a storm sewer. He stated they may end up proposing some rear storm sewer system that will provide drainage structures in two points of connections that will not require going in with a backhoe, but rather free boring methods, instead of a conventional storm sewer system. This would be a little more expensive but it will result in saving trees. He also stated they will need to haul off material from the sites. They will not be able to remove all of their basement spoil and spread it on the lots they are working on. They will need to physically put the basement spoil in the truck and remove it. This is because they will not be able to raise the grade around trees nor will they be able to put machinery on top of the tree root system. They are willing to make the commitment to do what it takes to save as many trees as possible and to relocate and replant those that are physically capable of being moved. Mr. White reviewed the preliminary engineering plan proposing to provide stormwater detention in the rear of the lots adjoining the Indian Creek flood plain on both properties. He noted they will have to provide a stormwater lift station and gravity sewers to that lift station. They are also proposing a public water system to connect to the Buffalo Grove system and a series of storm sewers. He stated they are aware that Buffalo Grove requires every lot to have a stormwater connection for the sump pump. Mr. Joffe stated the houses will all be from 2,600 square feet up to 3,600-3,700 square feet with prices at about $390,000 to $450,000 for base prices. Most of the homes will have 3-car garages. Chairman Goldspiel asked for a discussion of the flood plain, floodway, and the detention. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 11 Mr. White stated this property adjoins Indian Creek which is a tributary to the Des Plaines River and is regulated at this location by the Lake County Stormwater Management Commission and the Illinois Department of Transportation, Division of Natural Resources. He pointed out the flood plain and flood way boundaries. He stated it is there intention that all of the lots as completed will be 100 percent outside the floodway or flood plain boundary. All of the lots will comply with the Village's stormwater management requirements where the lowest floor, including basement, would be a minimum of 30 inches above the base flood elevation. Li Chairman Goldspiel asked if the proposed new flood elevations for the Des Plaines River will affect these properties. Mr. White stated he is dealing with the old floodplain elevations. However, the proposed new flood elevations for the Des Plaines River are farther to the east, and this property is substantially higher. The changes on the Des Plaines River will probably have no effect on this area. Chairman Goldspiel asked how the green area adjacent to the water management area will be maintained. Mr. White stated new stormwater management rules in Lake County have the effect of requiring new stormwater facilities to be designed for wet bottoms with the banks or sides of those facilities being planted in natural grasses. Right now the site is a manicured lawn, but it will be changed to a more natural type of landscape in order to get a permit from Lake County Stormwater Management. The outlots themselves would end up being owned and maintained by some form of a homeowner's association Chairman Goldspiel noted Buffalo Grove has not had homeowner's associations in single family developments. He further noted that they have found on tributaries to the Des Plaines River is that there needs to be maintenance so that tree trunks and other debris does not come and clog up the waterway which would cause water backup everywhere. The Village ordinance requires an 8 foot paved service road along waterways. There are options for this service road such as creating bikepaths to provide a pedestrian way as well as a maintenance access. However, there does not seem to be any way to maintain this water course as the plan sits. This is something that should be discussed with staff and a plan needs to be implemented. Chairman Goldspiel noted that if this site had been included in the Village's Comprehensive Plan, it would very likely have been recommended for a cluster housing concept. He stated he will need to have an explanation as to why a traditional R-3 single family subdivision is the best fit for this site. He further noted he is uneasy that the lot lines of the properties to the north in Vernon Hills run into Indian Creek, and he suggested that maintenance responsibility of the waterway needs to be clarified to ensure that regular maintenance and emergency cleanouts are adequately addressed. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 12 Mr. Martin stated the whole character of the Indian Creek corridor through Buffalo Grove all the way into Long Grove is single family, with fairly large lots in the Long Grove portion of the creek. The fairly large-size homes built on relatively small lots in the Vernon Hills River Grove development to the north shows the desirability in this area for these types of homesites. He stated it would have been difficult to come in with any kind of attached housing plans in this area because of the likely objections from the residents of the existing single-family developments. Mr. Martin noted they have basically tried to cluster homes in this site with this plan in terms of the terrain and the existing trees. That is why there is such a wide range of lot sizes. He noted they have really tried to cluster the homes up in the buildable areas of the site,maximizing the orientation to the open space and kept those lots down to a minimum. Chairman Goldspiel asked how the reduction of the right-of-way from 60 to 50 feet affects the amount of pavement that is seen. Mr. Martin stated the pavement width is not affected. Chairman Goldspiel noted the reason for the right-of-way width standard is to provide adequate area for sidewalks and utilities. Mr. Martin noted that on the Krueger property sidewalks on one side of the street would still permit residents of the 23 homes to have adequate pedestrian access to the Vernon Township park and into the Buffalo Grove sidewalk system. He noted there really is nowhere for pedestrians to go to the north or south of the site along the east side of Prairie Road. Chairman Goldspiel stated that if a path or paved access road is needed to maintain the stormwater management areas along Indian Creek, and if some required sidewalks are to be eliminated on the local street serving the development, he would like to look at alternatives for providing a way to link the path or road along the Creek to cross Prairie Road and link into a path to the Vernon Township park. Mr. White stated one of the issues the Lake County Stormwater Management Commission is addressing and what they will probably pass is a new buffer issue relative to streams and wetlands in the Waters of the U.S. Along the water portion of Indian Creek they will probably require either a 50 foot or 100 foot buffer. A stormwater management facility will have to comply with this standard. One of the things relative to that buffer is that the Stormwater Commission has tried to limit the width of a path or such facility as it parallels a stream or creek or wetland or facility. One of the things they have proposed is to limit that to 10 percent of the width. If they pass this rule, then that width could only be 5 feet in that 50 foot wide buffer. They are basically saying they are going to eliminate that access road that you are talking about. Such an access road could be on the other side of the detention area, but that defeats what was the Village's purpose in the first place. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 13 Chairman Goldspiel noted that it is important to know how this area is to be maintained and what method will be used to do that, other than with a homeowner's association. If the plan is going to ask for reduced right-of-ways,then it is also necessary to know how that will be compensated for. Commissioner Samuels noted he agrees that this site lends itself to a larger lot R-2 development or to a P.U.D. type of situation for empty nester type of housing for villas with zero lot lines and some wider spacing between the building clusters. He would prefer to see either fewer single family housing on R-2 lots or a P.U.D. style development. He asked for some comments on the length of the cul de sac and the feasibility of connecting to Kingston Road. Mr. Martin stated there is no question they are exceeding the 500 foot maximum cul de sac length. Once again, he stated this goes back to servicing the site. He stated he does not feel that with 23 homesites it is necessary to create any kind of a connection to the subdivision to the south. The character of the site is similar to other subdivisions in the area. Commissioner Samuels stated he does not agree. With some minor changes and the elimination of possibly one home, it would be possible to connect Kingston Road to the cul de sac and provide a second access. Mr. Martin stated he does not see how this connection would really help the rear of the site. Commissioner Samuels stressed this would help access and provide a second point of access to the subdivision. The reason for the 500 foot restriction in the ordinance is to provide a secondary emergency access. Mr. Martin stated there is an existing roadway that comes across there right now for emergency purposes and there may be a way to provide an easement along that lot to provide for potential emergency connect to the road stub. But it would not be needed from a traffic standpoint on a daily basis. He noted it is a good point and the road stub is there and there may be a way to provide some type of emergency access along the south end of that lot. Commissioner Samuels noted he would like to see some feasibility to connecting that area. Chairman Goldspiel noted that is another feature that might be handled by some kind of consolidated walk system. Commissioner Samuels noted the Fire Department must be consulted about this because they usually want a road with curbs, gutters, right of way and a 27 foot pavement instead of any kind of bikepaths. Commissioner Samuels asked how deep the detention along the north and east portion of the property will be. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 14 g g Mr. White stated they would be in the minimum area of a 4 foot depth in the wider area. There might be other features in the shallower areas. The entire basin will have to drain from the west towards the south and eventually outlet into the creek at the far southeast corner. Chairman Goldspiel asked what the character of the basin would be. Mr. White stated the banks would be natural grasses which is what Lake County Stormwater Management is requiring in the treatment of stormwater. They will not permit anything in the nature of concrete or channels. This basin would be a wet bottom all the time. Commissioner Trilling noted lots 8, 9, 14, and 15 appear to be in the flood plain. Mr. White stated they would have to provide compensatory storage within the detention facility for the volume that would be within those lots. They would fill that portion so that 100 percent of the lot area would be outside of the flood plain. Commissioner Trilling asked if there is any additional permitting process to accomplish that objective. Mr. White stated there is quite an involved permitting process with Lake County Stormwater Management. They do not actually have to exclude the lot from the flood plain, although it is their preference to do so instead of confusing insurance people. Commissioner Trilling asked if there is any other filling of areas other than the ones just mentioned. Mr. White stated no. Commissioner Trilling asked for an explanation of the Vernon Hills home lots which would appear to have the flood way boundary on the lots. Mr. White stated they platted to the boundary of the property and did not create an outlot along the creek. Commissioner Trilling asked if there is an ordinance regarding the depth of detention. Mr. Pfeil stated that for ponds a 15-foot depth is required, but the plan does not propose ponds. This is a new era in dry basins which are actually semi-wet basins now. Mr. Kuenkler has mentioned that the design of dry basin designs will have to meet the Lake County design requirements. Therefore, the Village will see more stormwater facilities of the type being proposed on the current plan for the Kreuger property. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 15 Commissioner Trilling asked if the Village has any requirement for a setback from the base of the lot line. Mr. Pfeil stated there is a set back requirement from the high water level. Mr. White stated the requirement is basically an elevation that the lowest floor, including basement, of any structure is at least 2 %2 feet above the base flood elevation. Li Commissioner Trilling noted that the high water line could in theory encroach on the property. Mr. White stated their intention is to make the lots so that the high water does not do so. However, it is not necessary relative to the Village ordinance. Commissioner Trilling noted there are two detention basins on the east side and asked if one basin flows into the other and then out. Mr. White stated yes. Commissioner Trilling asked if this will be an overland flow or through a pipe. Mr. White stated it would be piped. Commissioner Trilling asked if the flow from the second basin to the creek would be overland or piped. Mr. White stated it would be piped through an outlet structure with controlled release. There would, however, be an emergency overflow over land at the point the basin would be full for any reason. Commissioner Trilling asked if the plans are showing a 60 foot right of way for the roadway. Mr. White stated it is 60 feet at the entrance and 50 feet as you move into the lots. Commissioner Trilling strongly recommended the use of sidewalks on both sides of the street even though it is a cul de sac for the enjoyment of families with kids who will be out. Commissioner Berman also noted he would prefer to see sidewalks on both sides of the street as it is important for the character and quality of a neighborhood. He further stated he does not view the nature and density proposed for this site as in any inconsistent with the area. As to the secondary access, it would be best to be creative and see if something could be done to connect with Kingston Road. However, he would not be inclined to devastate the unique topography and resources on this site in order to achieve it. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 16 Commissioner Berman asked how utilities will be achieved. Mr. White stated they have proposed sanitary, sewer and water and indicated such on the preliminary plan. Commissioner Berman asked if the water will be looped. Mr. White noted he will have to deal with that with Mr. Kuenkler. He feels that Mr. Kuenkler will probably require looping. Commissioner Berman asked how sewer and water will be brought in. Mr. White stated there is sanitary sewer available and will require a lift station to be paid for by the developer. Commissioner Moons asked if the development to the north did not have to allow for any detention for their homes. Mr. White stated the development to the north had to provide stormwater detention in accordance with the Lake County Stormwater Management ordinance and had to obtain a permit. Commissioner Moons asked what the relationship is between the elevations of the homes to the south and the proposed homes and what happens to the water between the homes. Mr. White stated he cannot say they have any elevations of their homes. He stated he would assume the adjoining homes are higher than the homes they are proposing. Commissioner Moons asked if the proposed detention area includes the runoff water from those homes. Mr. White stated they are not required to provide detention for them, but they would have to allow that water to get to the stream in any type of overflow route. They would not propose a plan that would block overflow water in any way. Commissioner Krug stated he will only support this plan with sidewalks on both sides. Mr. Bill Frost, 23711 Kingston Road, stated he objects to a secondary access road into the Meadows subdivision. He noted that the subdivision was designed to have only one access. He commented that a street connection from the Krueger property into the Meadows would create a thoroughfare through the neighborhood for cut-through movements during times of heavy traffic in the area. He further stated he would like to be sure of the detention because there is a low lying area along the Krueger property and Meadows subdivision that always floods when it rains. Whatever is built on the Krueger property should not add to the current flooding Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 17 problem. Chairman Goldspiel asked what improvements would be made to Prairie Road as a result of this development, if any. Mr. White noted it had been suggested by the Police Department that left turn lanes be provided for safer access into the proposed subdivisions on the Krueger and Sislow properties. He said it his understanding that Lake County is planning a major improvement on this segment of Prairie Road. Zale is suggesting a payment for road improvements in-lieu of constructing turn lanes for only 29 lots, since the Prairie Road/Buffalo Grove Road improvement will be done at some time in the future. Chairman Goldspiel asked if this would be an appropriate time to refer to the Village's experts to get some input on this matter. Mr. Pfeil stated it is appropriate to get more in-depth comments from the Village's technical staff concerning the issues that have been identified. Better information is needed regarding stormwater management, identification of the trees that will be preserved or removed,planned improvements to Prairie Road, and how sanitary sewer will be provided for these properties. The Village Board is aware that it is a relatively unusual situation for the Village to have a sanitary sewer lift-station for a relatively small number of homes. Chairman Goldspiel stated he would appreciate some thought to an alternate means of providing pedestrian access. He stated he agrees with Commission Samuels in that this is not the use that he would have thought of for this area. He noted he has difficulty in understanding how this property will be maintained and how it would be attractive to people with children with the ponds and everything else here. Commissioner Samuels noted that these are the concepts he would have looked at in discussion during master planning. He is not saying he disapproves entirely of this proposal. As a 23 lot single family development, it is important to have sidewalks on both sides of the street. Chairman Goldspiel stated he needs to be reassured on the engineering for this property as well as water management and maintenance, traffic management, alternate access and staff issues on utilities. Normally these types of issues would have gone through quite a bit of study but this area is new to everyone and therefore there are many issues. Mr. Martin stated that as far as stormwater management issues, it should be noted that they are dealing with the Lake County Stormwater Management Commission which is probably the toughest in the area and he is confident the engineers can make this thing work and probably improve the situation for the homeowners in the south. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 18 Mr. Martin stated they realize they will probably have to deal with the issue of sidewalks on both sides of the street. He stated they have the ability to not follow the right of way line strictly. If they have to meander out to save a tree, they ask for the ability to do so. Chairman Goldspiel asked if there is an additional approval process necessary from the Corps of Engineers. Mr. White stated if they think they are going to encroach on any wetlands,there would be a process required. What they will probably do is at least make application and have them review the plan and determine if there is any permit required and at the very least get a no permit required letter. If they end up with doing tree removal and that type of thing they may to get a permit to go in and do that. Commissioner Trilling stated he would like the developer to give some consideration to giving the full parkway width of a 60 foot right of way. Mr. White stated he would ask that the property be looked at as there are some beautiful specimen trees there and if the Commission then still feels the same way, they would not argue. But he feels that if the property is physically examined, it will become apparent that some of these trees are really worth going out of the way to save. Commissioner Samuels agreed that anything should be done to save some of these mature trees. However, the question is why is it the right of way that affects this. He stated he would be in favor of meandering a sidewalk but it seems to be the right of way affects lot size more than it affects where the trees are. If you have the ability to meander the sidewalk somewhat, it should not make a big difference as to whether the sidewalk is 5 feet further towards the house or towards the street. Mr. Martin stated that to add 10 feet to the south side would not effect the lot sizes very much on the south side. What it affects is that it pushes the 30 foot front yard 10 feet further back. The houses now push further into the tree massing which is in the rear yards. He stated he can give the 60 foot right of way, but it will push everything 10 feet into the tree cover to the south of the homesites. Commissioner Samuels asked if the developer can show the alternatives and show which trees would be eliminated in detail. Mr. Pfeil stated the Village Forester has received the tree inventory,but the important issue is the number of specimen trees that will have to be removed to accommodate the development as proposed. The next should be to identify the exact location of the trees that would be removed based on the plans for streets, housing sites and driveways. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 19 Commissioner Trilling stated he would like to see a survey that will show which trees will be affected by using a 60 foot right of way. Mr. White stated they will have to get the two foresters together to work on a grading plan and try to see what is reasonable, what is worth saving,what is highly desirable to save and so on. He stated they are perfectly willing to do that with the Village. Chairman Goldspiel stated he is seeing large homes on lots that are not very large lots due to loss right of way and side yards. He noted he is looking for some way to take advantage of all of the water management land, green land and all to bring into the community so that this development is a part of the community and is all tied together. At the present this plan reads as an R-3 that is being squeezed and will really look more like R-4. Mr. Martin stated the average square footage here is about 14,000 square feet. Lots that are backing onto the creek or the stormwater management facility are the shallower lots but they are also the widest lots. Those side yards are well in excess of 8 feet so the separation between those buildings are, in fact, much greater. In addition,the other side of the street there are essentially inside curb lots so the fronts of those lots are much wider and the side yards in front of those lots are much greater. There are only two typical lots,2 and 22,which are the standard 80 foot wide lots. The only place where the 8 feet comes into play is on the pie shaped lot where, in fact,that is not a rectangular situation. There is a lot of variety in these lots. Where they have minimized the square footage, it is against the largest amount of open space and those are the widest lots. Commissioner Trilling noted that these homes seem to be designed in a way with only 2 car garages in mind and most people nowadays paying these kind of prices are looking for 3 car garages. He suggested a plan revision to accommodate 3 car garages which means a better footprint of the actual home. Chairman Goldspiel noted they will eventually need to know where the variations are. Commissioner Samuels asked if there are ordinances and requirements for the tree protection, fencing, shoring and all the things that are typically called for to protect trees on site during construction. Mr. Pfeil stated when trees are identified for protection then the Village Forester and Village Engineer work together to provide fencing and special protection for those trees during construction. Chairman Goldspiel noted the following items which need to be addressed for future meetings: 1. Prairie Road improvements and safe access into the two subdivisions 2. Maintenance responsibility and adequate access concerning stormwater Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 20 management areas and Indian Creek 3. Sidewalks to be provided for the subdivisions 4. Information concerning the impact of narrowing the proposed street right of way 5. Fire Department input concerning the cul-de-sac length and emergency access 6. Information on the sanitary sewer lift station 7. Information concerning the impact of the proposed street, homesite and driveway layouts on the number of trees that can be preserved and identification of the trees that would be removed BUFFALO GROVE TOWN CENTER. UNIT 9 --PLAT OF RESUBDIVISION(BURGER KING SITE) Moved by Commissioner Samuels, seconded by Commissioner Krug to recommend approval to the Village Board of the Plat of Resubdivision for the Burger King Site. Mr. Pfeil stated this resubdivision basically replats the south part of Town Center. This is a three lot subdivision but it is creating a new lot 3. Chairman Goldspiel noted some things are being put in and other taken out of the common area. Mr. Pfeil stated that is correct. The point of easement that is being modified contemplated a different building arrangement originally so there are some easements to be modified. Chairman Goldspiel asked if this is in accordance with the approved plan and been reviewed by Village staff and found to be in order. Mr. Pfeil stated yes. Commissioner Krug noted a name misspelled on the plat. He pointed out it should read as the "Firnbach" subdivision. Chairman Goldspiel called for a vote on the motion and the vote was as follows: AYES: Krug, Trilling, Ottenheimer, Moons,Viehman, Goldspiel NAYES: None ABSENT: Howard, Berman ABSTAIN: Samuels The motion passed 6 to 0. Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 21 II CHAIRMAN'S REPORT-None FUTURE AGENDA SCHEDULE Mr. Pfeil noted the next meeting is scheduled for February 17, 1999. PUBLIC COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS -None STAFF REPORT-None NEW BUSINESS -None ADJOURNMENT Moved by Commissioner Viehman, seconded by Commissioner Ottenheimer and carried unanimously to adjourn. Chairman Goldspiel adjourned the meeting at 10:50 p.m. Resp lly submitte Fay ubin, cor ing Secretary APP OVED BY: / EPH GOLDSPIEL, Chairman Buffalo Grove Plan Commission-Regular Meeting-February 3, 1999-Page 22